# New labs Feel Great ! but have low back pain:(



## artms (Jul 23, 2011)

Hi All....
So here are my new labs. My FT3 probably has never been this high, at least in my memory. If you recall I have Hashi's though it's been for 30 years and I probably have no thyroid function left and am just hypo.

2/10 1.5 grain Thyroid S
TSH+Free T4
TSH 0.042 Low 0.450-4.5
FT4, 1.03 0.82-1.77
FT3 4.1 2.0-4.4
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1/13/12 1 grain Armour
TSH+Free T4
TSH 0.319 Low 0.450-4.5
FT4 0.83 0.82-1.77 
FT3 2.9 2.0-4.4 
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I switched to Thyroid S a couple weeks ago and haven't had any problems. My blood pressure runs about 114/75 and pulse between 70 and 82. I haven't lost weight but haven't gained either,,,pretty much what it should be. I'm not jittery and I sleep well. I don't feel like eating a lot and essentially feel great, not hyper....except....

And I don't know if this is related but I have read that it's possibly related. I have constant low back pain and sciatic kind of aching and pain in hip. It's like low back menstrual cramps (I'm menopausal) 
So I have read it can be low adrenal cortisol . This it the only problem I have but it is uncomfortable. Oh I also take Vit D3 selenium and a multi vitamin, magnesium and now calcium. Had my Dr order a DEXA.

Any thoughts? Any tests I should get? What do you think? 
BTW I stepped off the PCP/Endo roller coaster and started getting labs on my own and dosing myself. I have decided to not return to the Endo I saw because she only goes by Tsh and seemed to not be up on this. So I'm on my own for now.Now I could go down .15 in my meds and probably be OK but am seeking input. If I need to get a cortisol test which one is recommended and can I get it without a Dr?


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

artms said:


> Hi All....
> So here are my new labs. My FT3 probably has never been this high, at least in my memory. If you recall I have Hashi's though it's been for 30 years and I probably have no thyroid function left and am just hypo.
> 
> 2/10 1.5 grain Thyroid S
> ...


OMG!! What a difference. It makes me wonder if you had gone up to 1 1/2 grains on Armour would you have achieved the same thing?

I am so so happy for you and just thrilled you feel so good.

Well, the kidneys can cause low back ache. Have you talked to the doc about this?

Meanwhile, stay on track. Be consistent.


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## artms (Jul 23, 2011)

Yea I'm pretty happy. I think it would have been the same with Armour. I can get this without a Rx so it frees me a bit from the nonsense with the Dr. Plus I like the taste of it. I have heard it is like the old Armour but I wouldn't know since I never took that.The thing about the joint pain has to do with an adrenal issue which I suspect I have. I know some people take cortef or isocort to help the inflammation and adrenals. So I was wondering if anyone has any experience with either of these or Pregnenolone supplement which is considered the mother of hormones such as progesterone and dhea. I feeling so good and would just like to not have the joint and back pain. Anybody??


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## lainey (Aug 26, 2010)

> BTW I stepped off the PCP/Endo roller coaster and started getting labs on my own and dosing myself.





> I can get this without a Rx so it frees me a bit from the nonsense with the Dr.


Are you kidding?

You really think it's smart to be dosing yourself with products from the internet without the help of a doctor?

And you're here asking us why you have back pain?

Isn't that a lot like a lawyer having themselves for a client?


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## artms (Jul 23, 2011)

Oh I understand what you're saying. My endo I had seen prescribed 90 mg Armour for me and wanted me to take all of it early in the morning for 4 months and get 2 labs drawn for only tsh saying the Ft3 and Ft4 were not values to look at at all because I was on Armour. I went ahead and got labs on my own which would include the frees. I reduced my dose and split it because I felt hyper on 90mg. I got my labs on 60 mg then 75mg then titrated up and got labs again on 90mg, The Thyroid S is mentioned on STTM btw and I don't believe it's a problem. I still have Armour too. Anyway my FreeT3 is higher than it has probably ever been but of course my TSH is lower. The Endo would probably have me taking less than a grain and I would be in sad shape. That I know. My joint issues have been present for months and are either related or not but i wouldn't be surprised if there is some adrenal stuff. I thought it would improve with a higher FT3. I was taking progesterone but got headaches so I stopped. Anyway I had hoped when I saw this Endo that she would address the adrenals but it seemed clear to me she would get me to a tsh of 1 and I would be having a whole lot of other problems andwe disagree. So my next appt with her is mid march and I will not see her again and will inform my PCP.Hopefully I can find another but in the meantime I'll take my meds and do my labs. But I certainly see your point and if you choose not to rspond with any information thats fine to.


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## lainey (Aug 26, 2010)

> The Thyroid S is mentioned on STTM btw and I don't believe it's a problem.


Not that I am an expert, but I am suspicious of anything that tries to sell itself, which makes the STTM website less than authoritative, IMHO. As for Thryoid S, it is unregulated, and unlike many of the other combination medications listed from the other countries, does not give dosing amounts for T4/T3 per grain--unless you have info on it that I cannot find. This is going to make it very hard to explain dosing requirements to a doctor, or match them with your labs.

As for adrenals, you would be hard pressed to find any endo to do more beyond test their function--it is either Addison's or it's not from their perspective. As for adrenal fatigue, you would need a holistic doctor in that case, but the "treatment" is primarily rest, diet changes and supplements.

Regarding other hormones, those should all be tested before you supplement. Progesterones accelerate thyroid metabolism, while estrogens slow it--once again because the "treatment"--unless you are glaringly deficient as opposed to imbalanced--is supplementation you really need to know where these hormones stand before you start.


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## CorralesNM (Nov 6, 2011)

artms said:


> Oh I understand what you're saying. My endo I had seen prescribed 90 mg Armour for me and wanted me to take all of it early in the morning for 4 months and get 2 labs drawn for only tsh saying the Ft3 and Ft4 were not values to look at at all because I was on Armour. I went ahead and got labs on my own which would include the frees. I reduced my dose and split it because I felt hyper on 90mg. I got my labs on 60 mg then 75mg then titrated up and got labs again on 90mg, The Thyroid S is mentioned on STTM btw and I don't believe it's a problem. I still have Armour too. Anyway my FreeT3 is higher than it has probably ever been but of course my TSH is lower. The Endo would probably have me taking less than a grain and I would be in sad shape. That I know. My joint issues have been present for months and are either related or not but i wouldn't be surprised if there is some adrenal stuff. I thought it would improve with a higher FT3. I was taking progesterone but got headaches so I stopped. Anyway I had hoped when I saw this Endo that she would address the adrenals but it seemed clear to me she would get me to a tsh of 1 and I would be having a whole lot of other problems andwe disagree. So my next appt with her is mid march and I will not see her again and will inform my PCP.Hopefully I can find another but in the meantime I'll take my meds and do my labs. But I certainly see your point and if you choose not to rspond with any information thats fine to.


I have a holistic doctor, and if I'm not mistaken, he tested my adrenal function both with a standard blood test and a saliva test. He uses Pharmasan Labs, which is in Osceola, Wisconsin. That lab will test per patient/client requests, as well. It's my understanding that they accept insurance, provided a doctor requests such tests.

My blood work showed I was moderately low in DHEA, and the saliva showed that the cortisol levels were up when they were supposed to be down and down when they were supposed to be up, so I'm on a DHEA supplement.

This doctor also tested my neurotransmitter levels with a urine test. I have read on the Net that more traditional docs consider such a test junk science, and I also must admit that the analysis of the neurotransmitter levels - ie, that my fight, flight, or freeze response was pretty much off the charts way way too high - was something I already knew just listening to my body.

And if I could weigh in for a minute regarding non-responsive doctors who don't listen (because I think that's the problem you ran into with your Endo), I had the same problem; my PCP and my Endo were not listening, and it was finally my therapist who suggested my current doctor. He is board certified ear, nose & throat, but he prescribes very few meds, except for Armour and LDN (which I started last night), so right now I'm treating my thyroid issue with supplements, including Biotics Research GTA, which seems to work for me. I will have a new thyroid panel done in mid-March (six weeks after my doc started me on all the other supplements; I've been on GTA since mid-January).

In my opinion, yes, it's probably not a good idea to dose yourself, but I completely understand the need. I won't go back to either my PCP or the Endo, and if I didn't have the doc I now have, I would probably be doing the same thing. I know my body. Right now, I'm in the process of looking for a new primary. The thing with being ill and having your medical provider dismiss you is that - again, in my opinion - the stress of not being heard can make a person feel even worse physically.

I also think that doctors are way too quick to dismiss women's health issues as being symptoms of depression or anxiety. And I am still angry that my PCP, a woman I've been seeing for more than 10 years, didn't bother to look at my Vitamin D levels. I started going in to see her or one of the PAs all the way back in May, complaining about weird joint and muscle pain, which I've never had before and which is a symptom of a low level of Vitamin D, and which was diagnosed as sciatica.

When docs take the time to listen and to believe their patients, then patients can get well--not simply stop being ill--but actually get well.

Good luck with your journey,

Corrales


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## artms (Jul 23, 2011)

Sriprasit Pharma Co., Ltd. is
the sister company of Sriprasit Dispensary R.O.P.
who is a a leading importer of pharmaceutical products.
Sriprasit Pharma has been a
GMP and ISO 9002-certified
manufacturer of pharmaceutical
products.

I inquired to the company regarding the strength and consistency of Thyroid S and their response was "T4:T3 =4:1. It is consistently according to our specification."

It was quite a jump for me to think that I may know better for me but this Endo told me things pretty contrary to what I believe to be true so I decided to cut way back with the dose to see for myself what my levels would be at each dose. I did not exceed what she had prescribed to begin with and I was quite surprised that I don't have any hyper symptoms. The first thing she told me when she walked in the room was that I was hyperthyroid and that she would start dropping my dose until my Tsh was 1. For me that was a red flag since I went through that last year and will not lose months of my life to oblivion because they don't understand how to treat to symptoms. I tried to find medical studies that would support my new understanding of labs and symptoms and she blew me off. I decided I don't have the time or inclination to educate her since she is reluctant so I got my own labs and monitored my symptoms myself.
to order meds online but I don't necessarily think that because it comes from a country other than the US makes it less than.

Knowing I have Hashi's makes me think that it opens me to other issues with arthritis and who knows what. I now appreciate the affect of hormone deficiency and that thyroid is only a part so yes, the journey continues and I thank you for any information and support you all offer. It's good to know there are others who have had the same issues with Drs. Not that I think Drs are gods but I am flabbergasted that they operate on such a narrow range of information.


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## Gwen1 (Sep 3, 2011)

lainey said:


> Regarding other hormones, those should all be tested before you supplement. Progesterones accelerate thyroid metabolism, while estrogens slow it--once again because the "treatment"--unless you are glaringly deficient as opposed to imbalanced--is supplementation you really need to know where these hormones stand before you start.


Hi Lainey, Regarding approaching menapause and the natural decline in estrogen and progesterone: What does that mean as far as a change in thyroid dosage? Generally, would a woman need a decrease in dose or increase? I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks.


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## lainey (Aug 26, 2010)

> Hi Lainey, Regarding approaching menapause and the natural decline in estrogen and progesterone: What does that mean as far as a change in thyroid dosage? Generally, would a woman need a decrease in dose or increase? I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks.


While I have not talked to many women about the changes in their dosages as they travel through menopause, I can make a couple of inferences.

It is generally recommended for example, that women starting and stopping birth control re-titrate their meds. Estrogens tend to bind thyroid hormones--some women who have regular monthly cycles have said that they have distinct monthly changes in their energy levels that match the changes in their menstrual cycles and the associated hormone shifts. As for birth control, because it changes the hormone balance, med changes may be necessary.

During pregnancy, thyroid replacement changes significantly, with women often increasing their dosage quite a bit and then going back after the baby is born.

If you make the assumption that menopause is similar, I would guess that women heading through menopause could expect some changes in the medication requirements, with possibly needing less medication as estrogen diminishes.

Like anything, "your mileage will vary" as they say. Monitoring through this period becomes key.


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## artms (Jul 23, 2011)

As I recall in my reading, thyroid treatment is compromised when women are taking systemic estrogen which goes in the liver. Estradiol vaginal cream is not such a problem.
I'm not sure about prometrium/progesterone.


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## lainey (Aug 26, 2010)

Yes, the route makes a difference. Many hormones are bound in the blood, and medications that go more directly to the blood stream can have more influence. Topical applications tend to put much less of a substance into the bloodstream, and at a slower rate.

Progesterones tend to un-bind thyroid hormones in the blood. For a woman, adding progesterones can cause thyroid TSH levels to drop as well. A man with low testosterone and thyroid issues can find this to be a balancing act in the same way that a woman would.

Regarding your original question, dose and medications changes often cause arthralgia, or arthritis-like symptoms along with other muscle and nerve symptoms, so your symptoms could be temporary. And yes, autoimmune disease do tend to come in multiples, so there is the possibility it could be a larger issue.


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## artms (Jul 23, 2011)

How interesting! If progesterone can cause TSH to drop is it possible then to have a low TSH AND low frees as well because of it? It makes no sense to me to have increasingly low TSH with consistently low FT3 and FT4 with the same level of medication. That was my case and I've tried to make sense of it. I never thought about progesterone until I saw that Endo and she questioned why I was taking Prometrium. I know why but not why 100 mg instead of 50mg. I actually was very groggy after taking it and never put it together...same with melatonin so I stopped taking it and am getting levels. I have just never thought about all these hormones and how they affect it all. I have to say though, thank god for hormones.


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## lainey (Aug 26, 2010)

There could be a connection, yes. It seems to me that current thinking is for post menopausal women to use HRT for as short a period as necessary to ease the symptoms and then taper off. The progesterone is available as a cream, which you may want to try as an option to the oral progesterone. Blood testing after a switch may help determine if it is behind the changes in your thyroid labs.

The sex hormones and the thyroid hormones are quite closely intertwined. Balancing all of these usually gives the patient the best results, especially when thyroid medication alone doesn't seem to be doing it alone.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

BIG mistake to be self-dosing. HUGE mistake. Better to find a doctor and create a collaborative relationship.

About the back pain: I've got just about everything wrong with my back that is either autoimmune or structural/mechanical.

A lot of lower back pain can be caused by problems with various organs. Best to see an orth surgeon and have him rule out back disease.

Let's not forget, if you're past 50, the back for most people undergoes some degeneration.


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