# TSH rising on Armour?



## MissJC (Jun 17, 2013)

Hi All...

Would any of you happen to know anything about TSH and Armour Thyroid? I understand that the tsh is usually really low or pretty much undetectable and useless when on an optimal dose, but can't seem to find any info as to why tsh would continue to rise on ndt. Is the fact that its rising relevant to treatment or is it still a useless test? I have an appointment with my endo next week and would like to have an understanding of my bloodwork before speaking with her.

Thanks in advance!


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## jenny v (May 6, 2012)

Could you give us some background? For starters, how long have you been on Armour? Have you had any dosage changes? Are they just testing TSH or Free T3 and Free T4, too?


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## Lovlkn (Dec 20, 2009)

You need to be more concerned with your Free T-4 and Free T-3.

TSH is primarely diagnostic and once on replacement does not mean much for dosing purpose.


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## MissJC (Jun 17, 2013)

Absolutely. I've been on Armour since September 2012. My original dose was 90mg and was decreased to 75mg in April. I actually posted a while back on this board as I was confused as to why my Dr. lowered my dose when I was feeling great. At this point I'm not sure if my labs suggest I could benefit from going back on my old dose or if my symptoms aren't even thyroid related. All I know is I still feel my old hypo symptoms and my Dr. seems to brush off the complaints...So this time I'm doing my research before my appointment. Side note...I also have a few complex nodules which are being routinely followed (most recently yesterday) via ultrasound.

*1/25/13:*

*TSH: 1.57 Ref Range: 0.40 - 4.50 mIU/L*

*T3 Free: 2.9 Ref Range: 2.3 - 4.2 pg/mL*

*4/26/13:*

*TSH: 0.07 Ref Range: 0.40 - 4.50 mIU/L*

*T3 Free: 2.8 Ref Range: 2.3 - 4.2 pg/mL*

*T4 Free: 1.0 Ref Range: 0.8 - 1.8 ng/dL ***Dose decreased to 75mg after these labs***

*6/5/13:*

*TSH: 0.72 Ref Range: 0.40 - 4.50 mIU/L*

*T3 Free: 2.4 Ref Range: 2.3 - 4.2 pg/mL*

*9/20/13*

*TSH 1.170 Ref Range: 0.450 - 4.500 uIU/mL*

*10/25/13:*

*TSH: 1.850 Ref Range: 0.450 - 4.500 uIU/mL*

*T3 Free: 3.0 Ref Range: 2.0 - 4.4 pg/mL*


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## MissJC (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks Lovlkn. I guess I was kind of reaching for a pattern there. She doesn't always check my free t4 so I'm not sure where my levels are and my free t3 is the highest it's been so far yet I still feel crappy.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

MissJC said:


> Hi All...
> 
> Would any of you happen to know anything about TSH and Armour Thyroid? I understand that the tsh is usually really low or pretty much undetectable and useless when on an optimal dose, but can't seem to find any info as to why tsh would continue to rise on ndt. Is the fact that its rising relevant to treatment or is it still a useless test? I have an appointment with my endo next week and would like to have an understanding of my bloodwork before speaking with her.
> 
> Thanks in advance!





MissJC said:


> Absolutely. I've been on Armour since September 2012. My original dose was 90mg and was decreased to 75mg in April. I actually posted a while back on this board as I was confused as to why my Dr. lowered my dose when I was feeling great. At this point I'm not sure if my labs suggest I could benefit from going back on my old dose or if my symptoms aren't even thyroid related. All I know is I still feel my old hypo symptoms and my Dr. seems to brush off the complaints...So this time I'm doing my research before my appointment. Side note...I also have a few complex nodules which are being routinely followed (most recently yesterday) via ultrasound.
> 
> *1/25/13:*
> 
> ...


Sadly, your doc is a TSH worshipper. TSH is no longer relevant at this stage for the most part. You need the FREE T3 test and if your doc won't run it or does not understand that FREE T3 should be the general guideline (all else being considered, of course), then you may need to find a doctor that does.

You are suffering needlessly.

Here is info. Hope you read it.

Understanding the Thyroid: Why You Should Check Your Free T3
http://breakingmuscle.com/health-medicine/understanding-thyroid-why-you-should-check-your-free-t3

Dr. Mercola (FREES)
http://www.mercola.com/article/hypothyroid/diagnosis_comp.htm

Free T3 and Free T4 are the only accurate measurement of the actual active thyroid hormone levels in the body. This is the hormone that is actually free and exerting effect on the cells. These are the thyroid hormones that count.


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## MissJC (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks so much for the links Andros! They will certainly help me when I approach my Dr. regarding the dosage concerns. It's so unfortunate that she continues to rely on my tsh and isn't listening to my complaints along with the free t3 and t4 tests. If I can't get her to look past the tsh next week, I'll start looking for a new endocrinologist.


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## jenny v (May 6, 2012)

Hopefully, your doc knows that Armour suppresses TSH (and it's supposed to!), so that is not a reliable test for dosing. When your TSH was .07 back in April, your Frees were still low so she should have kept you on that dosage of Armour. It stinks that she changed it and you started feeling bad again.

You don't necessarily have to go to another endo for your issues, you might try looking for a good PCP or similar doc who is known for prescribing Armour. My PCP prescribes mine (I just switched from Synthroid after surgery and we're titrating the Armour up until I feel good).


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## MissJC (Jun 17, 2013)

Hi jenny v! I definitely agree that my Dr. should have kept me on that dose back when my tsh was .07. Initially when she lowered the dose I questioned it in my mind but brushed it off assuming she knew what she was doing. I kind of wish I asked at that moment why she would make the change when I was beginning to feel better. It was only after coming on the forums that I realized she was dosing solely off of tsh and not paying attention to the frees or my symptoms.

I didn't even think about just working with my pcp for my issues. I'll give his office a call if it doesn't work out with my current endo. Somehow I think he may be more willing to put me back on my old dose and work with me as he was the one who listened to my complaints and my hunch that my thyroid was to blame in the first place.

Good look with your titration & I hope you begin to feel good soon!


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## Swimmer (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi, I just came across this and remembered your post.

WHY DID MY HASHI'S GET WORSE ON DESICCATED THYROID (and even Synthroid and other T4 meds)? Easy answer: patients have noticed that if they stayed on lower doses too long and/or didn't raise high enough, quick enough, it fed the attack, not stopped it. You then have further swelling in your throat, or hair loss, or high anxiety, or a raise in your antibodies&#8230;and heightened hypo symptoms with a higher TSH. And doctors who aren't knowledgeable about desiccated thyroid might put you back on synthetics, or take you off your meds completely. The solution discovered by patients is to raise the desiccated thyroid faster and according to the elimination of symptoms and NOT labs. Many seem to end up in the 2-5 grains area to stop that attack. This is where individuality comes in.

A caveat: some have noted that it will be impossible to raise well if you have developed a cortisol issue or low iron. Those need to be tested correctly and results understood. Also, many Hashi's patients need to be off gluten, use selenium to help lower antibodies, or use Low Dose Naltrexone for more stubborn cases (prescription by your doc). Some patients report that their iodine use greatly lowered antibodies, but they needed to use supporting nutrients because of the detox. This comes from: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/hashimotos/


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## MissJC (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks for the link swimmer! This is pretty interesting because my dr. never tested me for antibodies so I'm not sure if I have Hashimoto's. However, I've felt all along like I do because of the constant feeling of swinging back and forth between both states. I will look into this further and see if maybe I can get her to just test me for antibodies to find out. I'm also going to look into going gluten free to see if it will help any.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

MissJC said:


> Thanks so much for the links Andros! They will certainly help me when I approach my Dr. regarding the dosage concerns. It's so unfortunate that she continues to rely on my tsh and isn't listening to my complaints along with the free t3 and t4 tests. If I can't get her to look past the tsh next week, I'll start looking for a new endocrinologist.


Or any good doctor who understands this and wants to help you get functional. You don't need an endo for this.

And you are very welcome!


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