# please help. NEW TO HASHI'S



## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

labs:
TSH 1.64 (0.3-3)
FREE T3 3.24 (2.5-3.9)
FREE T4 1.00 (0.58-1.64)
VITAMIN D 23.6 (20-49.9)
THYROGLOBULIN ANTIBODIES 212 HIGH (<60)
THYROGLOBULIN 25.9 (<60)
TSI 89 (<140%)
TPO AS OF 9.6.2012 933 (<60)

I had a hyper episode (possibly hashitoxicosis) last week of september that lasted 6 days of pure palpitations,nervousness,irritability,anxiety,depression,and short of breath at times. i almost felt like i couldnt even swallow one point but that was probably my panic attack that i had once during that week. as of now,i am feeling hypo symptoms. lethargic, depressed, cold toes, extreme fatigue, weak, muscle and body aches w/ pain at times (i take motrin every 6 hours to help.. but it doesnt really help). however, at night when i sleep i tend to get heat palpitations, my back sweats, and my feet itches. during the day, it goes away. the only supplements ive taken are vitamin b12 1 mg a day and vitamin d 1000 iu. even though i was recommended by others to take more to bring it up the higher range. ive been so miserable, i am only 26, i work as an rn have been off work for three weeks. i went to an endo and he refused to treat me based on NORMAL LABS. completely ignoring my symptoms stating "if i were to give u something low does, your tsh will go up" .. questions?

1) there are doctors out there that go by the book and treat based on labs. are there doctors out there that treat based on symptoms? im still on the look out.. ive been sick for three weeks but it seems like eternity.

2) thyroid issue all started because i had switched from a birth control i was on for 7 years to a trial birth control to see if it would help with painful cramps. two months into that trial, i developed SEVERE uriticaria. stopped that birth control immediately went to an allergy dr, and ran the TPO test that showed i have hashimotos.. or maybe i do? my endo couldnt even give me a straight answer. after doing research, i suppose an FNA would be the definitive diagnosis. back to birth control, i finally got my period again after two months and i wanna go back on my old birth control again .. should i? or do they affect lab results?

3) what do u suggest? should i be on a low dose of synthroid/armour to alleviate my symptoms? this endo wants to do a wait and see, but im MISERABLE. i want my life back. anyone considered TT? and this early with those lab results is it even possible? and could i have hashitoxicosis since my tsi was 89. i was told to keep an eye on it..

4) what about diet? should i go gluten free? idk if im gluten intolerant. but i cant seem to give up white rice (im asian). and does SELENIUM really work?
thank you so much everyone!!


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## newyearforme (Sep 30, 2012)

I haven't been diagnosed with Hashi (Yet, but I am pretty sure that's what's going on). I haven't had my antibodies tested. But I wanted to tell you that I am in the same boat, have been miserable for three weeks and was ready to go to the emergency room this morning. I just startd taking selenium yesterday and took a triple dose today (300 mcg which is supposedly ok) and I do feel a bit better tonight - dont know if its coincidence or not. I also read DHEA helps and Vitamin D helps so I am taking them too. I found a doctor that specializes in thyroid (see bodylogicmd.com) so try them out and see if there's one in your city. I haven't called them yet so it might take awhile to get in there. Good luck - you aren't alone! I can't even think to do my work so I know how miserable you are.


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

newyearforme,

how much selenium are u taking and at what time? what about DHEA and vitamin d? what are good doses?


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## lainey (Aug 26, 2010)

You have TSI and a free T3 that falls high in the range, as well as reports of hyper symptoms.

Unfortunately it is the both sets of antibodies that control this, and the result is swinging numbers and symptoms.

You need to find a doctor that does not discount the presence of the TSI antibodies--read about others' experiences in the hashitoxicosis folder of this forum. Most docs will want you to ride it out as you are not readily medicable because your labs will likely shift widely on their own.

Because of this, I don't think replacement medication, especially anything with T3 in it, is going to help with those symptoms. You would likely find that it makes them worse.

Have you had an ultra sound? Do you have nodules or other structures in your thyroid? Have you had an uptake scan to see how your thyroid is functioning?


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

hi lainey couple questions,

how long will these hyper hypo symptoms last? ive only been experiencing these for the past four weeks im ready to yank this thing out. im exhausted and fatigued and in pain. and i cant find a real explanation for it. it just happened all of sudden as of 9/21/2012.

ultrasound should hetereogenous echotexture, no mass no cyst no nodules and a mildly enlarged right lobe. so the endo i saw, said negative.

the endo didnt want to order a uptake scan but im hoping this new endo i schedule an appointment with will order it for me. whats the significance of that test? should i just get a TT? is it too soon? my worry is that i need to return to work in 7 weeks, if not, i have to pay for my own insurance


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

Why sart with the selenium, DHEA, etc. You will only confound the testing and diagnosis. Leave it alone.


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

CA-Lynn,
i dont know what i can do to fix the fatigue and pains. its causing me to stay home and not work. been so depressed. how much selenium should i take? i heard 200 mcg might be too much and im scared of the side effects. i guess u can say im looking for a quick fix, but honestly, id rather be on medication and help alleviate these symptoms so i can live a functional normal life than be bed ridden. any advice?


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## lainey (Aug 26, 2010)

The problem is that swinging levels could go on for a period of time. That and, you need some blood draws to prove that they are swinging. Right now, you have the antibodies but the rest of your numbers are normal, and that is all the doctor is going to see.

It will take a little doctor shopping perhaps--although you seemed to say that this one suggested watching your antibody levels. That would be good, and is what can be done right now.

The uptake scan will show if you have normal thyroid activity or not. This would be helpful in further identifying a problem.

Keep in mind that any type of thyroid meds (anti thyroid or replacement) don't work over night. There are no quick fixes here, and noone is going to rush to surgery without more evidence either.


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## sjmjuly (Mar 23, 2012)

I have hashi's and take 200mcg of Selenium per day without any side effects. They say not to take more than 400, but I am good at 200. Any GNC store sells it in 200mcg doses. I also take magnesium, calcium, vit D & b-12. My antibodies are down from 439 to 237 and I know it's from taking Selenium. I am also gluten free which helps too.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

sjmjuly wrote: :My antibodies are down from 439 to 237 and I know it's from taking Selenium."

You cannot say for sure that the selenium caused this. Antibodies have minds of their own. The antibodies can wax and wane on their own. Too, if selenium was responsible, we would ALL be on Selenium to keep the antibodies low. No repeatable scientific studies to prove selenium is effective for all people in clinical studies have been found.

That said, here's a small study done some 10 years ago with a small population. Again, the improvement is an average of all 70 people in the study. Some showed no improvement at all.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11932302

I actually know of at least 3 studies......and in all of them selenium worked for SOME of the patients.....so it seems.

What you need to know is that selenium is toxic. Toxic drugs or supplements really need to be overseen by an MD.

http://ijt.sagepub.com/content/5/1/45.abstract


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## sjmjuly (Mar 23, 2012)

CA-Lynn said:


> sjmjuly wrote: :My antibodies are down from 439 to 237 and I know it's from taking Selenium."
> 
> You cannot say for sure that the selenium caused this. Antibodies have minds of their own. The antibodies can wax and wane on their own. Too, if selenium was responsible, we would ALL be on Selenium to keep the antibodies low. No repeatable scientific studies to prove selenium is effective for all people in clinical studies have been found.
> 
> ...


CA Lynn,
Until I added selenium to my daily routine, my antibodies stayed high. Now they have been on a steady decrease ever since. Science, science, science. Are you a scientist? Are you a doctor? No - I don't think so.
I KNOW Selenium is toxic - It's not like I sit and take one every hour. AND I am under a doctor's care.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

"Until I added selenium to my daily routine, my antibodies stayed high. Now they have been on a steady decrease ever since. Science, science, science. Are you a scientist? Are you a doctor? No - I don't think so."

Yes, science, science, science. You need to know how to read scientific journals and understand the stats. And most importantly, you need to understand what a controlled experiment is. [Just because you took selenium and your numbers came down does NOT mean that selenium was the cause.]

And yes, I read the journals and understand them. Don't be too quick to assume what I am and am not.

I know you want to believe that selenium is the answer. But I'm here to tell you that it may not be the answer at all.


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## sjmjuly (Mar 23, 2012)

Ahh here we go again,,,,I thought we were over this "scientific" conversation when it comes to HOW WE FEEL. I never said Selenium "is the answer". 
Go ahead and read your journals and understand them. I am sure they keep you busy.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

You stated, sjmjuly, _"Until I added selenium to my daily routine, my antibodies stayed high. Now they have been on a steady decrease ever since."_

What else are we to infer EXCEPT that selenium, for you, is the answer?

Your rude remarks aren't becoming.


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

ok sjmjuly and ca-lynn,

lets not get off topic! lol. i am not comfortable taking selenium unless its okay with my endo but he wasnt too fond of that supplement so now im looking for another dr to treat me. i understand my labs are normal and wanting to wait to see what it'll be in 3 months when he wants to run labs again however i cant function as i once did three weeks ago. ive been off work for almost a month. and ive been in bed and walking around my house occasionally . my fatigue is extreme and my pains in my back legs and arms have not resolved. i know these are the antibodies doing its job. i was just told that some people are treated based upon their symptoms no matter if their labs were normal. ive read many forums regarding that issue and i was wondering why that wasn't done for me. so now im looking for another endo who would probably LISTEN to me instead of basing it off lab work. i just want some of these symptoms to alleviate so i can go back to work and still have health insurance. otherwise, i have to quit then ill have nothing.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

If you can't wait for another doctor, go to Urgent Care, explain the situation to the doc on staff, and get them to book you an appointment with a doc that who would be more receptive to your needs.

From your description of the fatigue, it sounds like it's way more than is typical for thyroid disease. Perhaps something else going on?


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## joplin1975 (Jul 21, 2011)

CA-Lynn said:


> From your description of the fatigue, it sounds like it's way more than is typical for thyroid disease. Perhaps something else going on?


I was wondering this as well.

I don't doubt you symptoms nor do I want to sound dismissive. That said, I was untreated for 10 years. After surgery I was horribly under-medicated for months. I felt like crap on a frying pan a lot, but I can't say I would have ever had to miss work because of it, so your symptoms concern me that there's something else in the mix.


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

my ana came back negative and my c4 negative. i thought fatigue and muscle aches came with the thyroiditis and maybe my antibodies may have gone up but i dont know that for sure. my cortisol also came back normal so i dont have an adrenal issue. what would u guys suggest?


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

ca-lynn and joplin, what meds are you guys on? and for long? have ur symptoms been alleviated?


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## joplin1975 (Jul 21, 2011)

I don't have any suggestions, really. I'm sorry. I'm just talking out loud. I've had a lot of joint and muscle pain. Lots of fatigue, but, as I said, even at my very worst (TSH in the 120s, free T4 was barely registered etc.) I can't imagine being bed-ridden, so it just sounds like you are dealing with your thyroid plus something else.

I had Hashi's and was not medicated. Thyroid removed due to cancer, now on synthroid, symptoms totally gone.


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

i should get tested for lyme, maybe i am developing something from a bacterial or viral source. my back pain and leg/arm can be extreme at times and motrin barely helps. and my fatigue is also here and been here for three weeks.


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## sjmjuly (Mar 23, 2012)

Smelliebellie,
I had terrible muscle pains in my left thigh and lower back. I thought for the longest time it was my chair at work but after the company bought me a new chair, I found it wasn't that. Then I was diagnosed with Hashi's and started treatment. I take Naturethroid and once that began the pain got better. Still hurts once in awhile, but at least it doesn't hurt to walk anymore. 
I have a doctor that refers to lab results, but treats based on symptoms. She didn't like my last TSH result (VERY low) so I did decrease it a little bit. I still feel ok despite the decrease. I do agree with CA Lynn and Joplin1975. There may be something in addition to your thyroid going on. Your vitamin D is very low too. Were you tested for B-12? Both of these tend to be low in people with thyroid issues.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

SmellieBellie,

Telling you what meds I take or my symptoms won't help your situation. I have several autoimmune diseases and frankly the thyroid is the easiest to manage.

I really think you may have more going on. I never had to miss work due to lethargy from a combination of ALL of my autoimmune diseases. Believe me, there were times when I just wanted to veg out at home......but I didn't. And this is over the past 20+ years. So if your symptoms are as you describe, I really, really think something else is bothering you.

I honestly think that too many people blame thyroid mercilessly for a lot of symptoms, when it may not be appropriate.

So what would I do? I'd find a good internist who is a great diagnostician and start from square one. Take all your recent labs with you so they don't have to be repeated. No quick fixes, sorry.


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

sjmjuly,
my b12 wasnt tested but i will request that for my next appt. i just really hope this isnt something else on top of my thyroid. so im gonna get another ana, elisa, western blot, ebv tests just so i can rule these out. do u take vitamin d? if so, how much? and what would u recommend? i take 1000 iu a day.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

Information exchanged on these boards should not be construed as medical advice. We ARE NOT doctors. Please seek a qualified physician to answer your questions before acting on any information found here.


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

I have to say I agree with the others who have suggested something other than thyroid. Granted, I do not have Hashi's, so I can't really relate or provide first-hand insight, but other than one antibody level, your thyroid labs aren't really crazy. And I'm not familiar with any other stories of being bedridden for a month due to thyroid issues. I suspect something else. Plus, this seems to have come on rather suddenly, whereas many with thyroid issues see a gradual decline over months/years...not going from active to bedridden with time off work (and thinking of not going back) in a matter of weeks. You might consider holding off on non-prescription supplements and getting some additional testing to try to find what's going on.

I do hope you feel better soon.

(BTW, I'm not saying I don't think you have thyroid issues. I just think there's something else going on, too.)


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## javynliz (Aug 27, 2012)

I know how you feel. The Doc put me on levothyroxine and then I went to a different doc who gave me armor. I don't have the swings as much now. I have some more energy but have started experiencing heart palps. I go to the doc on Wednesday. I have antibodies but they are within normal range. They didn't do all the tests either. It's hard. No quick fix. Hang in there. Wish I had an answer for you. Hugs


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## sjmjuly (Mar 23, 2012)

smelliebellie said:


> sjmjuly,
> my b12 wasnt tested but i will request that for my next appt. i just really hope this isnt something else on top of my thyroid. so im gonna get another ana, elisa, western blot, ebv tests just so i can rule these out. do u take vitamin d? if so, how much? and what would u recommend? i take 1000 iu a day.


I take 1000 iu of D and I live in Oregon where the sun is considered a UFO! My level was low and so was my B-12. I had all the tests done before I took anything. I know the selenium is a sore subject and you will find there are two sides to the story regarding it. My PCP literally had to google it when I was in his office (knew NOTHING about it) went to another doctor and she understood it and was familiar with it. But I agree with the others when they say not to take anything until you find a good doctor and you have been tested. 
Thyroid disease is awful and then throw in the auto immune component and it makes you want to scream. There is no quick fix either and we are all different. What works for one, does not work for another. Some do well on synthetic drugs like Synthroid (my mother has taken it for years) I took a synthetic and ended up in the ER. A combo T3/T4 works better for me. It really is a crazy roller coaster ride. 
In the begining, I had horrible hyper/hypo swings. These have mellowed alot now and I feel better, but some people have the swings and some don't. That's why it's never a good idea to "recommend" any drugs or doses as they may not work for you. I can only tell you what I take and what works for me. Find a good doc and sometimes that's tough too, but that's your best bet.


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

sjmjuly,
thank you for your advice, i have an appt with my primary care doctor regarding all the labs that i want to get done. i work as an rn and it helps when i work with patients and what labs are useful. i called her husband who is also a dr and is trying his best to help me as well. i really thought this was a thyroid issue, but you could be right, there could be more that is going on since my fatigue and pain came so sudden. i would hate to say fibro or cfs but i havent been sick long enough to make that diagnosis or for someone to diagnose me for that matter. my pain comes and goes. i have better days then others but the fatigue still does linger. did vitamin d ever make you feel funny? i took 2000 iu yesterday and i felt emotional for some reason. i take b12 on and off but i dont know my level right now so thats why i stopped taking it. i havent tried magnesium. i heard its good for muscle pain too


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## sjmjuly (Mar 23, 2012)

smelliebellie said:


> sjmjuly,
> thank you for your advice, i have an appt with my primary care doctor regarding all the labs that i want to get done. i work as an rn and it helps when i work with patients and what labs are useful. i called her husband who is also a dr and is trying his best to help me as well. i really thought this was a thyroid issue, but you could be right, there could be more that is going on since my fatigue and pain came so sudden. i would hate to say fibro or cfs but i havent been sick long enough to make that diagnosis or for someone to diagnose me for that matter. my pain comes and goes. i have better days then others but the fatigue still does linger. did vitamin d ever make you feel funny? i took 2000 iu yesterday and i felt emotional for some reason. i take b12 on and off but i dont know my level right now so thats why i stopped taking it. i havent tried magnesium. i heard its good for muscle pain too


I take magnesium too and it is good for muscle pain. It's also good for heart palps (so they say,,,) but I still have skipped beats that scare me. Though my doctor says they are harmless (I wore an event monitor for a month that recorded my heart palps) Regardless, they still scare me. 
I have never felt weird from any of my vitamins or supplements. I am very careful about what I take and how much and have always been under the care of a doctor. My pain also came on suddenly though I think I have had hashi's for years and just started to have symptoms. But you need to rule out as much as possible before you blame hashi's for the way you feel. 
You will find that hashi's is very up and down. You will string together really good days and then BAM. You feel like crap. My biggest deal is that I just turned 50 so I don't know if it's hashi's or perimenopause!:tongue0013:
Get all your levels tested and see where you are at, but remember: Doctor's are not God and you know your body better than anyone. If you don't feel right, then something isn't the way it should be. Find a doctor that will listen to you!


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

sjmjuly,
thank you for your advice! what dose do u take for magnesium? and what time of the day do u take it? i was told taking it at night helps with sleep. im going to rule everything out before i blame hashis for my sudden fatigue and pains.. im nervous now


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## sjmjuly (Mar 23, 2012)

Don't be nervous - be informed and proactive. I take 400 mg of magnesium and I take it at night. I take all my vitamins at night as I take my thyroid medication in the morning and I don't want anything to interfere with it. I am SURE someone else may say never take them at night, but I have always done it this way and it works for me. 
Hashi's can e very overwhelming in the begining especially if you feel horrid. I have been healthy my entire life, never took any medications and was hardly ever sick. When I turned 48 everything changed. I started having all these weird issues (throwing up all the time, dizzyness, anxiety, extreme fatigue, muscle aches, ringing in my ears) I thought I was dying. Originally had an idiot doctor and I went undiagnosed for a year. I finally found a good doc that did all the testing and we found I was gluten intolerant, needed vitamins and had hashi's. After meds were started and I went gluten free, I started to feel better. We added vitamins and some supplements and I have slowly started to feel like myself again. Still have bad days, but much better than before.


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## smelliebellie (Oct 14, 2012)

sjmjuly,
thank you so much. i tried to do the fibro trigger points and i didnt find myself to be positive for any of them. that was random but i wanted to let you know for some reason. does the magnesium help you for your muscle pain? does it help in the morning when u wake up? i have 250mg of magnesium here. im scared to take because i dont even know what my mg level is at the moment. ill give it try anyway. when u say you have bad days, whats your days like? do u have to call into work? is it because you still have lingering symptoms? and did u say you were on Armour? also, whats your take on selenium?


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## sjmjuly (Mar 23, 2012)

smelliebellie said:


> sjmjuly,
> thank you so much. i tried to do the fibro trigger points and i didnt find myself to be positive for any of them. that was random but i wanted to let you know for some reason. does the magnesium help you for your muscle pain? does it help in the morning when u wake up? i have 250mg of magnesium here. im scared to take because i dont even know what my mg level is at the moment. ill give it try anyway. when u say you have bad days, whats your days like? do u have to call into work? is it because you still have lingering symptoms? and did u say you were on Armour? also, whats your take on selenium?


Bad days are body aches, headaches, tired, skipped heart beats (which are the WORST) I don't call into work anymore, I just suck it up and go in. Alot of the time the crappy feeling passes once I get up and get going. I am on Naturethroid which is kinda like Armour in that they both contain T4 & T3. 
The magnesium has helped I guess, but nothing is a magic pill or "fix". I take Selenium, but I am careful with it. Most regular medical doctors don't think it's neccessary though, and my regular GP didn't even really know how it correlates with hashi's. (He had to "google" it when I was in his office) As you have seen here, there are some that don't think it helps, and others that do. All I can tell you is that I take it everyday. 
Are you on any medication yet? Sometimes the docs don't want to treat hashi's if your TSH, T3 & T4 are in range, even if your antibodies are high. I can tell you that I was a mess until I started taking the Naturethroid.


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## surge (Aug 15, 2012)

This is an interesting feed. Just to weigh in: it sounds like regardless of what all is going on, we do know something thyroid related is happening and we know your body is inflamed/dealing with the thyroid + ?. I think it could just be thyroid (I've felt so crappy for months), but it is good that you and your doc are also trying to rule out other issues. Did you look at iron levels? and fwiw, I did think "Lyme" as soon as you started talking about the intensity of the muscle pain.

A very strict diet will not cure you of anything but it might help in the long run to calm down some of the inflammation, and might even help boost some of your vitamin levels, since rare minerals are always better absorbed in food than as a supplement. If you're desperate enough, you might want to consider 4-6 weeks or no dairy, no wheat, no corn, no alcohol, no sugar. There are lots of great websites for recipes and tips, like Simply Sugar and Gluten Free, as well as nutritionists who could support you, if you want to try it. This is a long-haul thing. The first week will be hard, 2nd week you'll start seeing some benefits. And it won't change anything overnight. Also considering the severity of your symptoms, the diet's benefits might be too subtle to even notice, but maybe over the course of 6 weeks, it could help support other choices you're making to calm down inflammation.


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