# Need Help With New Thyroid Panel Labs



## CP900

Hi all,

I recently ordered and received a thyroid panel from Quest Diagnostics. It's a simple panel, but here were the tests and scores:

T3 UPTAKE 33 [22-35 %]
T4 (THYROXINE), TOTAL 6.6 [4.5-12.0 mcg/dL]
FREE T4 INDEX (T7) 2.2 [1.4-3.8]
TSH 3.19 [0.40-4.50 mIU/L]

My symptoms have seemed to indicate hypothyroidism, and thyroid disorders run heavily in my family, so I'm trying to determine if something is - or is in the process of - going wrong. Symptoms I've had include: ED, low libido, weight gain, coldness, decreases in appetite, brain fog, joint and body pain, and an odd numb/tingling feeling in my forehead.

Help in ruling in, or ruling out, hypothyroidism would be very much appreciated.


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I recently ordered and received a thyroid panel from Quest Diagnostics. It's a simple panel, but here were the tests and scores:
> 
> T3 UPTAKE 33 [22-35 %]
> T4 (THYROXINE), TOTAL 6.6 [4.5-12.0 mcg/dL]
> FREE T4 INDEX (T7) 2.2 [1.4-3.8]
> TSH 3.19 [0.40-4.50 mIU/L]
> 
> My symptoms have seemed to indicate hypothyroidism, and thyroid disorders run heavily in my family, so I'm trying to determine if something is - or is in the process of - going wrong. Symptoms I've had include: ED, low libido, weight gain, coldness, decreases in appetite, brain fog, joint and body pain, and an odd numb/tingling feeling in my forehead.
> 
> Help in ruling in, or ruling out, hypothyroidism would be very much appreciated.


While that is a Total 4 which is bound and unbound hormone, it is awfully low and combined with that TSH which would make most of us quite ill; I would say yes, you are hypo.

What does your doc say?

Here is some useful info:

Free T3 and Free T4 are the only accurate measurement of the actual active thyroid hormone levels in the body. This is the hormone that is actually free and exerting effect on the cells. These are the thyroid hormones that count.

http://www.drlam.com/articles/hypothyroidism.asp?page=2#diagnosis: standard laboratory test


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## CP900

Thank you Andros for your input. I have an appointment scheduled with my doctor next Thursday where I will mention my new values. My doctor did run a TSH test back in the summer of 2011 and the value came out at 2.6 at that time. She did not want to do anything or run anymore tests. Maybe an increase to 3.19 will convince her to do something.

Thank you Andros for your help. What should my next steps be?


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Thank you Andros for your input. I have an appointment scheduled with my doctor next Thursday where I will mention my new values. My doctor did run a TSH test back in the summer of 2011 and the value came out at 2.6 at that time. She did not want to do anything or run anymore tests. Maybe an increase to 3.19 will convince her to do something.
> 
> Thank you Andros for your help. What should my next steps be?


It would be good to insist that your doctor run the TSH (of course)and the FREE T3 and FREE T4.

The Frees are going to tell us a whole lot more about what is going on.

Antibodies' tests would be good also if your doctor is amenable and I don't see why your doctor would not be.

TPO (antimicrosomal antibodies) TBII (thyrotropin-binding inhibitory immunoglobulin), Thyroglobulin Ab, ANA (antinuclear antibodies), (thyroid hormone panel) TSH, Free T3, Free T4.

You can look this stuff up here and more.........
http://www.labtestsonline.org/

You are very welcome and I hope I do help. Are you symptomatic? Could you list symptoms?


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## CP900

Hi Andros,

I don't know how knowledgeable my doctor is on thyroid disorders, but I will do my best to get those tests run.

As far as symptoms go, I do most certainly feel symptomatic. The most troubling things I've been dealing with are:

erectile dysfunction
loss of libido
loss of energy
sleep disturbances
weight gain despite eating less
decreasing appetite
cold hands and feet
painful/weak joints
odd sensation in forehead (not sure if this is related)

Another thing is, my Prolactin came out high in two recent tests as well. Prolactin was 14.4 the first time and 16.1 the next week, with a reference range of 3 - 13. I've heard that increased Prolactin might also be a sign of developing hypothyroidism.

In any case, something is definitely going on with my body, of that I can assure you.


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## Octavia

Have you had your testosterone levels checked? How about iron or ferritin? Those are worth looking into as well, given the symptoms you mention.


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## CP900

I have had testosterone checked in the past. According to lab ranges, my total T and free T were normal but for my age, they were definitely low. I'm only 23 years old. It's interesting you mention testosterone, though, as my doctor actually just (in the last week) put me on androgel to see if raising my testosterone helps. So far, nothing is better, but we'll see. Also, I have had iron looked at, though perhaps I should get it re-checked.

I know that what's going on with my body probably isn't going to be easy to solve. I have this feeling that a little bit of everything is out of whack and I'm not sure where to start. I do know, however, that thyroid disorders run quite strongly in my family, and that's a concern for me. My mother is hypothyroid, my grandmother had a very large goiter removed surgically and is now hypothyroid, one of my uncles is hypothyroid, and even my sister (only 19) is also facing similar circumstances.


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Hi Andros,
> 
> I don't know how knowledgeable my doctor is on thyroid disorders, but I will do my best to get those tests run.
> 
> As far as symptoms go, I do most certainly feel symptomatic. The most troubling things I've been dealing with are:
> 
> erectile dysfunction
> loss of libido
> loss of energy
> sleep disturbances
> weight gain despite eating less
> decreasing appetite
> cold hands and feet
> painful/weak joints
> odd sensation in forehead (not sure if this is related)
> 
> Another thing is, my Prolactin came out high in two recent tests as well. Prolactin was 14.4 the first time and 16.1 the next week, with a reference range of 3 - 13. I've heard that increased Prolactin might also be a sign of developing hypothyroidism.
> 
> In any case, something is definitely going on with my body, of that I can assure you.


You are very symptomatic; yes, indeed!

Your doc does not have to know much to check off the little boxes on your lab sheet. Once you get the tests, results and ranges..............; you can take it from there to another doc if need be.


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## Zugora

CP900 said:


> I know that what's going on with my body probably isn't going to be easy to solve. I have this feeling that a little bit of everything is out of whack and I'm not sure where to start. I do know, however, that thyroid disorders run quite strongly in my family, and that's a concern for me. My mother is hypothyroid, my grandmother had a very large goiter removed surgically and is now hypothyroid, one of my uncles is hypothyroid, and even my sister (only 19) is also facing similar circumstances.


CP900, I'm in the same boat as you right now (however, I'm female) -- STRONG family history, laundry-list of hypothryoid sxs, "normal" high-end of range for TSH, , low-end for FT3 and FT4 but "normal". Finding a doc to listen is they key and demand those FT3, FT4 and antibody tests for hashimoto's. Most docs just rely on TSH (which is a terrible mistake). If you can't find a decent doc, this website might be helpful in finding a good doctor in your area: http://www.thyroid-info.com/topdrs/#us . Just scroll down to find your state. I found my current doc from this website and he spent 2 hours with me on my first visit! My follow-up is next week --crossing fingers. Keep us posted.


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## CP900

Zugora said:


> CP900, I'm in the same boat as you right now (however, I'm female) -- STRONG family history, laundry-list of hypothryoid sxs, "normal" high-end of range for TSH, , low-end for FT3 and FT4 but "normal". Finding a doc to listen is they key and demand those FT3, FT4 and antibody tests for hashimoto's. Most docs just rely on TSH (which is a terrible mistake). If you can't find a decent doc, this website might be helpful in finding a good doctor in your area: http://www.thyroid-info.com/topdrs/#us . Just scroll down to find your state. I found my current doc from this website and he spent 2 hours with me on my first visit! My follow-up is next week --crossing fingers. Keep us posted.


Hey Zugora,

Sorry to hear that you've been battling to figure things out with your thyroid. I hope your new doctor is able to do something helpful for you. And, thanks for the web link. If my doctor doesn't look into this further, I'll look for someone else that will.

I will keep posted on how I'm doing. Please keep me posted as well and good luck! Hope you get the answers you need (especially being a new year and all)!


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Thank you Andros for your input. I have an appointment scheduled with my doctor next Thursday where I will mention my new values. My doctor did run a TSH test back in the summer of 2011 and the value came out at 2.6 at that time. She did not want to do anything or run anymore tests. Maybe an increase to 3.19 will convince her to do something.
> 
> Thank you Andros for your help. What should my next steps be?


Forgot to provide this for you.

Free T3 and Free T4 are the only accurate measurement of the actual active thyroid hormone levels in the body. This is the hormone that is actually free and exerting effect on the cells. These are the thyroid hormones that count.

http://www.drlam.com/articles/hypothyroidism.asp?page=2#diagnosis: standard laboratory test


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## Zugora

Thanks, CP900. Will do.

By the way, the new "normal" clinical guidelines according to the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists (AACE) is .3-3.0. So, according to this, you are clearly in the red for being hypothyroid. Even though these guidelines were set in 2002, many docs and labs are still clueless about this and still use the old ranges.


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## CP900

Andros said:


> Forgot to provide this for you.
> 
> Free T3 and Free T4 are the only accurate measurement of the actual active thyroid hormone levels in the body. This is the hormone that is actually free and exerting effect on the cells. These are the thyroid hormones that count.
> 
> http://www.drlam.com/articles/hypothyroidism.asp?page=2#diagnosis: standard laboratory test


Thanks again Andros!

Hopefully I can convince my doc to check these levels. If not, I found out that I can order them myself for around $40 each at a local Quest lab. As soon as I get them tested I will update this post with the results.

Also, as far as testing for Free T3 and Free T4 go, are levels of these hormones different during different times of the day? For instance, is Free T4 higher in the mornings than in the evenings? Is it possible that my TSH, which was tested in the morning, could possibly be higher later in the day?

Just wondering how the thyroid operates, and if I should maybe try to baseline my thyroid during different times of the day? Does that make any sense?


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## CP900

That's interesting Zugora. So AACE has narrowed the top of the range for TSH to 3? I will most certainly bring this to the attention of my doctor! That really could be enough to sway her to do something or at least look into the issue more!

I think you are right about doctors and labs being clueless then. The top of the TSH lab range at Quest is 4.5, and at a local hospital (where I had my first testing done) is still 5.


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## Zugora

CP900 said:


> That's interesting Zugora. So AACE has narrowed the top of the range for TSH to 3? I will most certainly bring this to the attention of my doctor! That really could be enough to sway her to do something or at least look into the issue more!
> 
> I think you are right about doctors and labs being clueless then. The top of the TSH lab range at Quest is 4.5, and at a local hospital (where I had my first testing done) is still 5.


Yep - they sure did narrow it. If your doctor doesn't believe you, refer him/her to this: http://thyroid.about.com/cs/testsforthyroid/a/labs2003.htm

My mom and sister (and I believe you and I are, too) are examples of displaying hypothyroid sxs well before their TSH rose above 5.0. My mom had hypothyroid sxs for years, but the TSH was always under 5.0. It wasn't until her TSH rose to above 5 that a doctor finally treated her. She went on Synthroid and low and behold, sxs went away. My sister had glaring sxs. TSH was always in the 2-area, but finally rose to 3. Because she had depression/anxiety issues, she was seeing a psychiatrist. This psychiatrist was aware of the new guidelines by AACE and suggested she might have a thyroid-problem and to also get tested for thyroid antibodies. Turns out, she has Hashimoto's and went on thyroid meds. Her sxs, including the depression and anxiety went away.

Along with your thyroid labs (TSH, Free T3, Free T4, and 2 thyroid anti-body tests), make sure you get your male hormone levels, ANA antibodies (the general autoimmune test), vitamin D, B-12, cortisol, and ferritin levels checked out, too. Some of this should be covered in a complete blood work-up, but be sure you ask.


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Thanks again Andros!
> 
> Hopefully I can convince my doc to check these levels. If not, I found out that I can order them myself for around $40 each at a local Quest lab. As soon as I get them tested I will update this post with the results.
> 
> Also, as far as testing for Free T3 and Free T4 go, are levels of these hormones different during different times of the day? For instance, is Free T4 higher in the mornings than in the evenings? Is it possible that my TSH, which was tested in the morning, could possibly be higher later in the day?
> 
> Just wondering how the thyroid operates, and if I should maybe try to baseline my thyroid during different times of the day? Does that make any sense?


Oh, yes. These hormones do fluctuate throughout the day and night. They sure do.

Actually, I believe that TSH peaks at about 2 AM. It is very nocturnal.

http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter4/ch01s02.html

And if one is taking any form of T3, that usually peaks in about 4 hours from ingestion.

It is well known that liothyronine reaches peak levels 2 to 4 hours after oral administration, which may lead to increased levels of T3 at that period of time. Over the past few years efforts have been made to produce LT3 preparations which are slowly absorbed, time-released etc., etc..

http://hormones.gr/preview.php?c_id=696


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## CP900

Andros said:


> Oh, yes. These hormones do fluctuate throughout the day and night. They sure do.
> 
> Actually, I believe that TSH peaks at about 2 AM. It is very nocturnal.
> 
> http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter4/ch01s02.html


Interesting. That's some good information to know!

From the best of your knowledge Andros, would you say mornings are the best time to test thyroid hormones, or should people wait till the afternoon?

Also, the author in the web link you provided stated that dopamine agonists can suppress TSH values. Is there an interaction between thyroid and dopamine agonists?

Thanks again!


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## CP900

Zugora said:


> Along with your thyroid labs (TSH, Free T3, Free T4, and 2 thyroid anti-body tests), make sure you get your male hormone levels, ANA antibodies (the general autoimmune test), vitamin D, B-12, cortisol, and ferritin levels checked out, too. Some of this should be covered in a complete blood work-up, but be sure you ask.


With such a strong family history of hypothyroidism and the presence of symptoms, it's sad that your thyroid has been ignored as "normal" by doctors. Hopefully that turns around!

I have had vitamin D tested, a morning cortisol ran, and testosterone as well. I will have to request the values for 2 of these tests from my doc. She said they were normal, but who knows, right? The rest of those I will have to work on. The thing is, I don't know if you've noticed this at all in your case but it's not like thyroid alone is the only deviant in all of this. I had an E2 test run and it came out slightly elevated, as did prolactin. Testosterone is below average for my age, which concerns me. My doc actually has me on a trial run of androgel, but so far nothing!

Have you had any other labs ran that came out suspicious?


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Interesting. That's some good information to know!
> 
> From the best of your knowledge Andros, would you say mornings are the best time to test thyroid hormones, or should people wait till the afternoon?
> 
> Also, the author in the web link you provided stated that dopamine agonists can raise TSH values. Is there an interaction between thyroid and dopamine agonists?
> 
> Thanks again!


Can't you tell I love questions?? LOL!! This is how "I" learn.

In answer to your question; Holy Cats.........................YES!!!!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2784889/


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## CP900

Andros... you are such a huge help. Thanks for the information!

I checked that link and, here's some interesting information. Currently, I'm taking .25mg of cabergoline (a dopamine agonist) E3D as a trial to see if lowering prolactin would ease some of the sexual symptoms I've been going through. Well, that hasn't really happened.

Anyways, the authors in that article you just posted seem to indicate that dopamine agonists can actually suppress TSH levels. Does this mean my "natural" TSH might not have been recorded accurately? Could the cabergoline possibly be suppressing it, even a slight amount? Should I mention this to my doc?


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Andros... you are such a huge help. Thanks for the information!
> 
> I checked that link and, here's some interesting information. Currently, I'm taking .25mg of cabergoline (a dopamine agonist) E3D as a trial to see if lowering prolactin would ease some of the sexual symptoms I've been going through. Well, that hasn't really happened.
> 
> Anyways, the authors in that article you just posted seem to indicate that dopamine agonists can actually suppress TSH levels. Does this mean my "natural" TSH might not have been recorded accurately? Could the cabergoline possibly be suppressing it, even a slight amount? Should I mention this to my doc?


Absolutely; your "real" TSH is probably higher.

It is entirely possible that treating your thyroid properly will in fact treat the prolactin problem.


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## Zugora

CP900 said:


> With such a strong family history of hypothyroidism and the presence of symptoms, it's sad that your thyroid has been ignored as "normal" by doctors. Hopefully that turns around!


You said it! We'll see what happens next week with new doc.



CP900 said:


> I have had vitamin D tested, a morning cortisol ran, and testosterone as well. I will have to request the values for 2 of these tests from my doc. She said they were normal, but who knows, right?


One thing I've learned is don't take "normal" for an answer. As a patient, you always have the right to ask for a copy of the blood-work results and ranges. I found that most of the time, they will just call you if it's "abnormal" and that I have to ask for the copy of the results.



CP900 said:


> Have you had any other labs ran that came out suspicious?


I have PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome) which has an insulin resistance component and slightly off-kilter female hormones. My sister and mom have it, as well. Interestingly, 50% of PCOS women have either hashimoto's or hypothyroidism. I also have positive ANA antibodies, so something autoimmune is going on. I feel like I don't need to connect the dots, the picture is already there. Hang in there, we'll both get to the bottom of this.


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## CP900

Andros said:


> Absolutely; your "real" TSH is probably higher.
> 
> It is entirely possible that treating your thyroid properly will in fact treat the prolactin problem.


Hmmm... I see. I will argue all of this with my doctor on Thursday. I'm also "very" tempted to check free t4 and free t3 myself, like you mentioned, before I meet up with her. I just hate the waiting game, you know?



> I have PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome) which has an insulin resistance component and slightly off-kilter female hormones. My sister and mom have it, as well. Interestingly, 50% of PCOS women have either hashimoto's or hypothyroidism. I also have positive ANA antibodies, so something autoimmune is going on. I feel like I don't need to connect the dots, the picture is already there. Hang in there, we'll both get to the bottom of this.


Right you are. We'll get this figured out! Just out of curiosity, did you ever have anything adrenal looked at like cortisol? I've been hearing that low or excessive cortisol can cause thyroid problems as well.


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## CP900

Andros and Zugora,

I have a question about a symptom that's been bothering me for awhile now (ok, well, they all have). It really started developing months ago, but has gotten worse in the past 3 - 4 weeks. I have this fuzzy/tingling sensation in my forehead that I can only describe as "odd." It is not usually present when I wake up in the morning but it develops as the day goes on and grows increasingly noticeable until the evening, when it's most noticeable. I've recognized that as the fuzzy/tingling sensation in my forehead grows more prevalent, my ability to think tends to decrease.

Do either of you have any clue what this is and what might be causing it? I just don't know, but it bothers me literally EVERY day!


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## Zugora

CP900 said:


> Andros and Zugora,
> ...I have this fuzzy/tingling sensation in my forehead that I can only describe as "odd." ...Do either of you have any clue what this is and what might be causing it? I just don't know, but it bothers me literally EVERY day!


I've been getting fuzzy/tingling/numb sensations in my hands and feet. I have no clue what is causing it, but I know there are a bunch of endocrine disorders (including thyroid) that have that as a symptom.


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## CP900

Yes, it is that same fuzzy/tingling/numb sensation you describe in your hands and feet that develops constantly in my entire forehead region. I have also done some searching and found thyroid connected to this issue, just as you say.

I don't know if they're at all linked, but I've also come up with "lowered body temperature" as a possible cause. I've been tracking my body temperature throughout the past couple days and it fluctuates from low/mid 96 to low mid 97, usually landing somewhere in the 96 degree region. I know the body is designed to operate best at close to 98.6, so maybe there is something there?


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## Zugora

Hypothyroidism slows down metabolism and bodily functions, including heart rate and blood-flow. I think the tingling/numb sensations are due to lack of blood-flow somehow, kind of like when you sit cross-legged for a long time and your foot will tingle and go numb for a little bit....no blood flow there. I kinda think the brain-fog is from the same thing... little blood flow up there and brain chemicals not being sufficiently stimulated.


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Andros and Zugora,
> 
> I have a question about a symptom that's been bothering me for awhile now (ok, well, they all have). It really started developing months ago, but has gotten worse in the past 3 - 4 weeks. I have this fuzzy/tingling sensation in my forehead that I can only describe as "odd." It is not usually present when I wake up in the morning but it develops as the day goes on and grows increasingly noticeable until the evening, when it's most noticeable. I've recognized that as the fuzzy/tingling sensation in my forehead grows more prevalent, my ability to think tends to decrease.
> 
> Do either of you have any clue what this is and what might be causing it? I just don't know, but it bothers me literally EVERY day!


We had a cable outage so I was off-line for a day and a half.

This is called peripheral neuropathy and/or myopathy or both.

Usually due to autoimmune issues specifically thyroid and diabetes (endocrine.)

Myopathy from hyper.
http://www.medicalonly.com/2007/07/27/thyrotoxicmyopathy_hyperthyroidism

Myopathy from hypo
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1010480/

peripheral neuropathy
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/peripheralneuropathy/detail_peripheralneuropathy.htm

http://www.suite101.com/content/thyroid-disease-and-neuropathy-symptoms-a140669

I had the same forehead experience a very long time ago.

Let us know what you think after reading the above links.


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## CP900

Thanks for the articles Andros 

I only just started reading them, but I believe one of the points offered by the authors is that thyroid hormone deficiency can cause fluid retention and swelling of tissues, which can then go on to squeeze or compress nerve endings and cause the tingling/fuzzy sensations I've been experiencing (and yes, right now even) in my forehead. Complicating this would be a decreased blood flow to nerves and tissue, as Zugora mentioned, right?

I will keep reading, but the feelings described in the ninds article on peripheral neuropathy match some of what I've been experiencing (esp. the numbness and tingling).

Was the feeling in your forehead resolved after thyroid treatment Andros?


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## CP900

So I guess I'm going to have to find a thyroid specialist. My current doctor didn't want to look into thyroid at all. Any one know any good doctors in the northern Michigan area?


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## Zugora

Ugh!!! You are so symptomatic, have a super strong family history, and you have a TSH over 3.0. Here's is some info on how to find a good thyroid doctor: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/how-to-find-a-good-doc/

Like the website mentions, I have personally called a compounding pharmacy and asked which doctors around town prescribe Armour (as they tend to be more "open" to subclinical thryoid issues). The pharmacist was super helpful and gave out the info pretty willingly. You can get Armour at a regular pharmacy where I live too, so you might even try calling a regular pharmacy.


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## CP900

Thank you for the information Zugora. *Sigh* yea it seems no matter how many times I stress symptoms or the presence of a "strong" family history, I don't get anywhere. I will do as you did and call a local pharmacy to find out who prescribes Armour thyroid and go from there.


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## bbdailey

CP900 I too am 23 and male and having many similar symptoms as you are. I have been diagnosed with hashimotos but my other labs are also "normal". My symptoms definately are not normal though and are preventing me from living a normal life. I have many of the physical symptoms that you have but my biggest problems are the mental ones. Its kind of hard to explain but the best way to describe it is depression/anxiety/brain fog. Whenever I describe this people think I am just depressed but I know that is not the case. The symptoms come and go completely randomly but I am always feeling "off". I have been on and off of thyroid medication(stupid I know) but at one point I actually felt somewhat normal for the first time in years on only 50 mcg levothyroid. I hope you find a doctor that will listen to you soon and get you started on thyroid replacement because for some people just a little replacement can help out a whole lot.


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## CP900

bbdailey said:


> CP900 I too am 23 and male and having many similar symptoms as you are. I have been diagnosed with hashimotos but my other labs are also "normal". My symptoms definately are not normal though and are preventing me from living a normal life. I have many of the physical symptoms that you have but my biggest problems are the mental ones. Its kind of hard to explain but the best way to describe it is depression/anxiety/brain fog. Whenever I describe this people think I am just depressed but I know that is not the case. The symptoms come and go completely randomly but I am always feeling "off". I have been on and off of thyroid medication(stupid I know) but at one point I actually felt somewhat normal for the first time in years on only 50 mcg levothyroid. I hope you find a doctor that will listen to you soon and get you started on thyroid replacement because for some people just a little replacement can help out a whole lot.


Ugh, same age and you have to deal with this terrible stuff too? Sorry to hear that bbdailey. I would agree that brain fog/anxiety/depression (all of which I've experienced, and continue to experience) are some of the hardest symptoms to live with. Losing energy and motivation are tough enough, but not being able to think clearly is just horrible, especially going through college and trying to work in IT. For me, the mental aspects are probably the worst, but the erectile dysfunction and loss of libido are just as bad. I mean, come on, I was 20 years old and dealing with those two issues. How many 20 year olds really have to even think about, much less worry about, those things?

If you were starting and stopping thyroid medication, then that tells me you either weren't always feeling full positive benefits, or you didn't like the idea of committing to medicine. I can definitely understand both issues, I just hope you find something that works for you. I know you mentioned tests came out normal for you, but how much additional blood work have you had done? Has your doctor tried adding T3 in as well? Could there be anything missing? I've had prolactin, estradiol, testosterone, and morning cortisol done, as well as TSH. prolactin and estradiol came out slightly elevated, and TSH has been on the rise. Perhaps there could be something in these areas for you as well?

Stay strong and keep posted on how you do!


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## CP900

Hey all,

Just wanted to give everyone a minor status update after not posting in about a month. I've recently scheduled an appointment with a "Center for Wellness" doctor in my local town who works with compounding pharmacies, saliva testing, etc. and is willing to think outside of the box. It's going to be a huge investment on my part (well, huge being that I don't exactly have the highest paying job and his initial visit fee is $395 and not covered by insurance), but I've got to do something and I know it's my best shot. If there's anything that's top of my priority list, it's my health.

I'll post what happens when the time comes. My visit with the wellness doctor is March 22nd, but I'm on the cancellation list so hopefully (as bad as this sounds) someone cancels and I can get in earlier. I'm sick of feeling unhealthy and can't wait to get things on the right track.


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## Zugora

Good luck, CP900! Keep us all updated. Bring the recommended labs list with you to your appointment. Crossing fingers!


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## Andros

CP900 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just wanted to give everyone a minor status update after not posting in about a month. I've recently scheduled an appointment with a "Center for Wellness" doctor in my local town who works with compounding pharmacies, saliva testing, etc. and is willing to think outside of the box. It's going to be a huge investment on my part (well, huge being that I don't exactly have the highest paying job and his initial visit fee is $395 and not covered by insurance), but I've got to do something and I know it's my best shot. If there's anything that's top of my priority list, it's my health.
> 
> I'll post what happens when the time comes. My visit with the wellness doctor is March 22nd, but I'm on the cancellation list so hopefully (as bad as this sounds) someone cancels and I can get in earlier. I'm sick of feeling unhealthy and can't wait to get things on the right track.


That is very very good news. I am praying this is money well invested on your behalf. You "must" let us know.


----------



## CP900

Thanks guys, I will definitely let you all know what happens!


----------



## CP900

Hey all, I'm back with a couple minor updates.

First, my appointment with the local anti-aging doctor I spoke of earlier got pushed a week earlier, so I get to see him next Thursday! I'm really excited about that!

Second, my primary was kind enough (after strongly telling her how badly I was suffering) to run some labs of her own. She ran:

Total Testosterone, Free Testosterone, TSH, and Free T4.

The values came out at:

Total T: 274.8ng/dL ref. (180 - 780)

Free T: 30.34pg/mL ref. (8.69 - 54.69)

TSH: 4.13uIU/mL ref. (.3 - 5.0)

Free T4: .7ng/dL ref. (.7 - 2.0)

My total T def. appears to be lagging, and I'd like to see my free T higher as well. My TSH has heightened since my last test, and free T4 is at the lowest end of the reference range. I know for a fact that these numbers must be awful.

I believe the end is in sight! Though, I feel like there are some more pieces to the puzzle. Please let me know what you all think.

Thanks


----------



## Andros

CP900 said:


> Hey all, I'm back with a couple minor updates.
> 
> First, my appointment with the local anti-aging doctor I spoke of earlier got pushed a week earlier, so I get to see him next Thursday! I'm really excited about that!
> 
> Second, my primary was kind enough (after strongly telling her how badly I was suffering) to run some labs of her own. She ran:
> 
> Total Testosterone, Free Testosterone, TSH, and Free T4.
> 
> The values came out at:
> 
> Total T: 274.8ng/dL ref. (180 - 780)
> 
> Free T: 30.34pg/mL ref. (8.69 - 54.69)
> 
> TSH: 4.13uIU/mL ref. (.3 - 5.0)
> 
> Free T4: .7ng/dL ref. (.7 - 2.0)
> 
> My total T def. appears to be lagging, and I'd like to see my free T higher as well. My TSH has heightened since my last test, and free T4 is at the lowest end of the reference range. I know for a fact that these numbers must be awful.
> 
> I believe the end is in sight! Though, I feel like there are some more pieces to the puzzle. Please let me know what you all think.
> 
> Thanks


You are hypothyroid to be sure. Yikes! Let us know as soon as you can about Thurs. appt..


----------



## CP900

Another update...

So I got in a day early (yesterday, Wednesday the 14th) to see the anti-aging doc. He was very nice and took my symptoms, as well as lab results, into combined consideration. I could tell immediately that he was willing to think outside of the box. At the end of my appointment with him, a game plan was developed. He is doing a thorough testing of my hormone levels, especially ones that haven't yet been tested. He also agreed that I should be put on armour thyroid for hypothyroidism, but to wait for adrenal results before doing so. He informed me that balancing the adrenals was important as thyroid medications can tax a weakened adrenal system.

As far as testosterone goes, I am going off androgel and allowing myself to build back up to natural levels and seeing how my body does. Odds are I will be put on some sort of testosterone treatment in the near future, but only after confirming natural levels again.

In short, the anti-aging doctor believes that, from the symptoms I described, I could very well have a "trashed" adrenal system in addition to everything else. So, I am having salivary testing and blood testing done and then meeting back a few weeks after to put things in action.

I hate waiting, but I am very grateful for the new perspective and my new doctor's willingness to help.

I'll continue to keep you all posted


----------



## Zugora

CP900 said:


> Another update...
> 
> So I got in a day early (yesterday, Wednesday the 14th) to see the anti-aging doc. He was very nice and took my symptoms, as well as lab results, into combined consideration. I could tell immediately that he was willing to think outside of the box. At the end of my appointment with him, a game plan was developed. He is doing a thorough testing of my hormone levels, especially ones that haven't yet been tested. He also agreed that I should be put on armour thyroid for hypothyroidism, but to wait for adrenal results before doing so. He informed me that balancing the adrenals was important as thyroid medications can tax a weakened adrenal system.
> 
> As far as testosterone goes, I am going off androgel and allowing myself to build back up to natural levels and seeing how my body does. Odds are I will be put on some sort of testosterone treatment in the near future, but only after confirming natural levels again.
> 
> In short, the anti-aging doctor believes that, from the symptoms I described, I could very well have a "trashed" adrenal system in addition to everything else. So, I am having salivary testing and blood testing done and then meeting back a few weeks after to put things in action.
> 
> I hate waiting, but I am very grateful for the new perspective and my new doctor's willingness to help.
> 
> I'll continue to keep you all posted


That's great news, CP900!!! He is right on. Yes, if the adrenals are taxed, then yes, the adrenals need to be addressed first before thyroid medication. And yay for further hormone testing and the saliva test!! Hopefully, you won't have too many hang-ups in the process of getting all of this figured out.

Let us know how the test results come out. I too, am going through some adrenal issues, so it might be nice to compare notes as to what the doctor's recommend.


----------



## CP900

Hey all 

So... I have had two appointments with my new doctor now and I have some interesting things to report.

First, my pregnenolone and ferritin were low. I have no idea why these were low, but I'm currently taking 30mg oral pregnenolone now and waiting on some lab tests to see what's going on with iron.

Second, I tested positive for thyroid antibodies. My score came out at 29 on a scale of <20, so my doctor suggested that I might be in the early stages of Hashimoto's. My TSH was 4.03; it has raised since last time. My free T4 really did not change, and my free T3 was 3.3 (it looks like my TSH increasing is all that's keeping my free T3 up).

Third, my saliva indicated heightened cortisol levels in the AM, and other readings were typically low-normal throughout the rest of the day. Dr thinks there might be some adrenal issues starting so he has me taking two herbal remedies. I'm hopeful here but not too convinced of the effectiveness of herbal remedies...

Fourth, my doctor prescribed me to take 7.5mgs of Armour Thyroid starting May 17th and then to get a thyroid panel 6-8 weeks after that to see how I'm doing. Is this really enough though? Will I even feel this small of a dose? And 6-8 weeks? Why that long?

Finally, he wants to test testosterone levels mid June, 3 months after stopping androgel, to see where my body naturally is.

I like the way my doctor is thinking except for one thing: I think he's being way too conservative with dosing and testing.

Any thoughts guys and gals?


----------



## Zugora

Hi CP900,
Sounds like your doc is testing the right things and is treating your adrenals FIRST before starting you on Armour. This is a good thing. Could you post your lab ranges with your each lab result?



CP900 said:


> Hey all
> Third, my saliva indicated heightened cortisol levels in the AM, and other readings were typically low-normal throughout the rest of the day. Dr thinks there might be some adrenal issues starting so he has me taking two herbal remedies. I'm hopeful here but not too convinced of the effectiveness of herbal remedies...


Adrenal issues are very common with thyroid problems. Adrenals try to pick up the slack from the sluggish thyroid and in turn, they become weak. I'm having adrenals issues, as well. What herbals is he recommending? Licorice Root? Ashwanganda? You might also want to supplement with these basic vitamins that are good for the adrenals: B-Complex (1-2 daily), Vit C (2000 mg/day), Vit B-5 [Pantothenic Acid] (two 250 mg/day). This is what I've started taking per doctor's request and I have noticed a significant difference since taking them. But then again, I'm sensitive to the smallest amount of med/supps, so maybe that's why.

My doc wanted me to start Cortef for treating adrenals (I'm already on Armour) but I'm not sure if Cortef (hyrdocortisone) is the way I want to go. I'm trying the Circadian Protocol (http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/t3-circadian-protocol-for-adrenals/) first before I try Cortef. Please let me know how your herbal adrenal supplements work out for you.



CP900 said:


> Fourth, my doctor prescribed me to take 7.5mgs of Armour Thyroid starting May 17th and then to get a thyroid panel 6-8 weeks after that to see how I'm doing. Is this really enough though? Will I even feel this small of a dose? And 6-8 weeks? Why that long?


It sounds like he is treating your adrenals first and building them up before putting you on Armour. This is good. Thyroid meds can be really tough on the adrenals if cortisol is low. And, if they are not supported, you won't be able to tolerate the thyroid med. That's what is happening to me right now. Wish I knew this before I started Armour. I bet he is starting you on such a low dose because you have low cortisol now. In a month from now, after some adrenal support, you might be better equipped to handle the thyroid med, and I bet he's starting so low because he doesn't want to stress your adrenals with the standard dose. I started at 15 mgs of Armour, which was 1/2 of what my doc wanted me start at. Even 15 mgs really packed a punch for me (probably because of the adrenals) . It will be a slow process in titrating up, but you will get there. 6-8 weeks is common for titrating up. My doc had me titrate up every 2 weeks in the beginning (since it was such a low dose), but I couldn't handle it.

Try to rest up, go to bed early, wake up at the same time every day, eat healthy, and stay away from sugars, caffeine and alcohol. Your adrenals will need this time to recuperate.


----------



## CP900

> Hi CP900,
> Sounds like your doc is testing the right things and is treating your adrenals FIRST before starting you on Armour. This is a good thing. Could you post your lab ranges with your each lab result?


Hey Zugora, it's good to hear from you 

My test results from the doctor were as follows:

4x Salivary Cortisol: Genova Diagnostics
7 - 9am - 1.31mcg/dL [ref. 0.27 - 1.18]
11 - 1pm - 0.13mcg/dL [ref. 0.10 - 0.41]
3 - 5pm - 0.19mcg/dL [ref. 0.05 - 0.27]
10 - 12am - 0.05mcg/dL [ref. 0.03 - 0.14]

1x Salivary DHEA - 489pg/mL 
[ref. 71 - 640]

Estradiol - 19pg/mL 
[ref. < = 29]

Estrone - 20pg/mL 
[ref. < = 68]

Total Cholesterol - 122mg/dL
[ref. 125 - 200]

HDL Cholesterol - 33mg/dL 
[ref. > = 40]

LDL Cholesterol - 71mg/dL 
[ref. < = 130]

Triglycerides - 90mg/dL 
[ref. < = 150]

CHOL / HDLC - 3.7
[ref. < = 5.0]

TSH - 4.03mIU/L
[ref. 0.40 - 4.50]

Free T4 - 1.0ng/dL
[ref. 0.8 - 1.8]

Free T3 - 3.3pg/mL
[ref. 2.3 - 4.2]

Thyroglobulin AB - 29
[ref. < 20]

Thyroid Peroxidase - 23
[ref. < 35]

Reverse T3 - 17ng/dL
[ref. 9 - 28]

IGF-1 - 284ng/mL
[ref. 83 - 456]

Pregnenolone - < 5ng/dL
[ref. 13 - 208]

Ferritin - 16ng/mL
[ref. 20 - 345]

C-Reactive Protein - 0.33mg/dL
[ref. < 0.8]

What did your labs look like, especially thyroid and adrenal?



> Adrenal issues are very common with thyroid problems. Adrenals try to pick up the slack from the sluggish thyroid and in turn, they become weak. I'm having adrenals issues, as well. What herbals is he recommending? Licorice Root? Ashwanganda? You might also want to supplement with these basic vitamins that are good for the adrenals: B-Complex (1-2 daily), Vit C (2000 mg/day), Vit B-5 [Pantothenic Acid] (two 250 mg/day). This is what I've started taking per doctor's request and I have noticed a significant difference since taking them. But then again, I'm sensitive to the smallest amount of med/supps, so maybe that's why.
> 
> My doc wanted me to start Cortef for treating adrenals (I'm already on Armour) but I'm not sure if Cortef (hyrdocortisone) is the way I want to go. I'm trying the Circadian Protocol (http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...-for-adrenals/) first before I try Cortef. Please let me know how your herbal adrenal supplements work out for you.


My doctor is recommending two supplements: Adrenotone and Calmitrol. I am currently taking five Adrenotone capsules ED (3 in the morning, 2 at night) and one Calmitrol capsule every 8 hours. I believe the supplements you listed (and more) are included in these two herbal remedies.

I agree with your viewpoint. I myself would want to try anything else I could before going on HC. I will let you know how the Adrenotone and Calmitrol go... please let me know how you continue to do as well.



> It sounds like he is treating your adrenals first and building them up before putting you on Armour. This is good. Thyroid meds can be really tough on the adrenals if cortisol is low. And, if they are not supported, you won't be able to tolerate the thyroid med. That's what is happening to me right now. Wish I knew this before I started Armour. I bet he is starting you on such a low dose because you have low cortisol now. In a month from now, after some adrenal support, you might be better equipped to handle the thyroid med, and I bet he's starting so low because he doesn't want to stress your adrenals with the standard dose. I started at 15 mgs of Armour, which was 1/2 of what my doc wanted me start at. Even 15 mgs really packed a punch for me (probably because of the adrenals) . It will be a slow process in titrating up, but you will get there. 6-8 weeks is common for titrating up. My doc had me titrate up every 2 weeks in the beginning (since it was such a low dose), but I couldn't handle it.
> 
> Try to rest up, go to bed early, wake up at the same time every day, eat healthy, and stay away from sugars, caffeine and alcohol. Your adrenals will need this time to recuperate.


You are very wise Zugora 

I suppose in my haste to feel normal again I've forgotten that all good things take time. My doctor has a plan, and I have to trust that he knows what he's doing.

I will take this slowly, especially as you say you had a rougher experience on the next dose up from mine (15mgs).

Please keep me posted on how you do, and I will do the same. Once again, thanks!


----------



## Zugora

Thanks for posting the labs and ranges. I'm not an expert when it comes to the numbers, but it seems like your doc is on the right track . Your adrenal labs don't seem like they warrant HC, but you do need something. Morning is high, Noon is too low, evening is so-so, night is ok. I'll let others chime in on your numbers, too:

You mentioned my saliva numbers. Here they are:
Morning: 7.8 (3.7-9.5). A little low, should be higher end of range.
Noon: 1.0 (1.2-3.0) - Doc said this one was horrendous. Should be a little over the 1/2 mark or so in range.
Evening: 4.0 (0.6-1.9) - Way too high. Wasn't doing anything strenuous here, either. Should be about 1/2 way in the range.
Night: 0.3 (0.4-1.0) - A little low.

My latest thyroid labs are listed in my signature. I'm probably due for labs soon.

I'm in a tricky spot because I have already started Armour (now at 3/4 grain or 45mg) and i'm having a hard time tolerating it because of the adrenals. I'm still not quite sure what to do about it. Doc wants me to be on HC, but the consensus of others in different adrenal forums say that my numbers don't really warrant HC. But, I need to do something, because I'll never be able to raise my Armour without getting cortisol on the right track. Sigh. I think I need to see your doc.

I see that Adrenotone has some good B vitamins, Pantothenic Acid, Vitamin C, Rhodiola, Licorice Root, and Ashwaghanda. All are supposed to be good for regulating cortisol and supplementing adrenals. I tried Licorice Root, but it made my heart race even more.  Hopefully, you won't have that. It was suggested to me to try Ashwaghanda and Rhodiola. I might try that.

Calmitrol has valerian, chamomile and passionflower. These are calming herbs often prescribed for anxiety and such. This should keep you nice and mellow for a little while. 

Keep us posted on how things go with the supplements and as you start Armour. Hang in there!


----------



## CP900

Wow so it's been awhile since my last update! Well, it's been almost six months now since I started the adrenal supplementation and about 5 months since starting Armour thyroid (low dose 7.5mg).

I am now on 150mg MLM pregnenolone, 30mg Armour, and the same adrenal combination (calmatrol + adrenotone). I'm feeling overall better than what I felt six months ago, but still far from my old, normal self.

Two things: 1) sadly the adrenal combination has not worked at all for me... at least not that I can feel; 2) I am not feeling drastic improvement from the Armour thyroid. My doctor has increased every month 1/8th grain at a time, and I can "maybe" feel the increase the first few days and then I don't notice any difference at all. I'm going to call next week and find out if we can try a different approach.

Oh, also, I just sent out my 6-month saliva testing for cortisol and DHEA so we'll see if there has been any improvement there at all!

Zugora, if you're still roaming the message boards, how have you been doing?


----------



## Andros

CP900 said:


> Wow so it's been awhile since my last update! Well, it's been almost six months now since I started the adrenal supplementation and about 5 months since starting Armour thyroid (low dose 7.5mg).
> 
> I am now on 150mg MLM pregnenolone, 30mg Armour, and the same adrenal combination (calmatrol + adrenotone). I'm feeling overall better than what I felt six months ago, but still far from my old, normal self.
> 
> Two things: 1) sadly the adrenal combination has not worked at all for me... at least not that I can feel; 2) I am not feeling drastic improvement from the Armour thyroid. My doctor has increased every month 1/8th grain at a time, and I can "maybe" feel the increase the first few days and then I don't notice any difference at all. I'm going to call next week and find out if we can try a different approach.
> 
> Oh, also, I just sent out my 6-month saliva testing for cortisol and DHEA so we'll see if there has been any improvement there at all!
> 
> Zugora, if you're still roaming the message boards, how have you been doing?


Zugora is here!!

Well, that is a low dose of Armour so no doubt you feel exhausted but what is a person do to if the adrenals are exhausted? It's a real conundrum. I feel for you.

Are you on a healthy diet? Have you eschewed all ready made food products, canned goods, artificial sweetners, glutens and so on?

Good to hear from you!


----------



## Zugora

Hi there, CP900 -
I was just wondering how you were doing the other day. I'm still pretty crappy over here, but making tiny improvements. I agree with Andros, that you are still on a very small amount of Armour and you will probably just need to build your cortisol levels up before you can handle the raises.

From what I have heard from others and through my own research, adrenal + thyroid issues is a SLLLLOWWW road to healing. If cortisol levels (or iron) are not optimal, then one will have a very difficult time tolerating and raising thyroid medication. This has been my case, but I'm finding that as my cortisol levels are leveling out some and now that I have been supplementing with iron to get levels more optimal, I'm handing the raises a little better. How are your iron levels? Did you get all of these tested? Ferritin, % Saturation, TIBC and serum iron? http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/

Andros and CP900, I found the Stop the Thyroid Madness website very helpful, especially the topic concerning adrenals:

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/t3-circadian-method-for-adrenals/

The second is concerning the T3 Circadian Method (T3CM) for thyroid and adrenals...CP900, you might want to look into that. There are many, many people finding excellent results with this protocol and they can successfully wean of the steroids, pregnenolone or HC. You can even use NDT with the T3CM. Paul Robinson, the author of the book, offers a lot of help on these forums.

CP900 you might want to join these FB groups, I am there as well:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/stopthethyroidmadness/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/STTMAdrenalsDiscussion/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/T3onlySTTMdiscussion/ (this one is used for discussing the T3CM)

Many patients there really know there stuff about adrenals.

My latest saliva tests are looking pretty good these days, and I'm taking adrenal adaptogens to help support them as I am trying to raise my NDT...I'm actually on Nature-Throid now, prescribed by my doc, since I know that I have some food sensitivities and Nature-Throid (Westhroid) does not have any gluten, corn, peanut, rice, soy, yeast, egg, fillers. I have also started supplementing with iron since my iron levels were not the best and this can be one of the "hang-ups" for tolerating thyroid hormone.

Keep on trucking along...you will get there. The process is slow, but we'll get there. 

Take Care!



Andros said:


> Zugora is here!!
> 
> Well, that is a low dose of Armour so no doubt you feel exhausted but what is a person do to if the adrenals are exhausted? It's a real conundrum. I feel for you.
> 
> Are you on a healthy diet? Have you eschewed all ready made food products, canned goods, artificial sweetners, glutens and so on?
> 
> Good to hear from you!


----------



## Zugora

CP900, there is also a T3CM Yahoo! Group, too: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/T3CM/


----------



## CP900

> Zugora is here!!
> 
> Well, that is a low dose of Armour so no doubt you feel exhausted but what is a person do to if the adrenals are exhausted? It's a real conundrum. I feel for you.
> 
> Are you on a healthy diet? Have you eschewed all ready made food products, canned goods, artificial sweetners, glutens and so on?
> 
> Good to hear from you!


Hey Andros, good to hear from you as well 

Yes, I have been watching my diet very closely and have been very good at cutting out processed foods and sticking to more wholesome meals. Admittedly, gluten is the one item you mention that still makes it in to my diet, but in the form of local stone-ground bread.

*Sigh* yes it is a conundrum... I'm really counting on my doctor to help me figure this out. Not ever having been the patient type, this has been a very trying time for me.



> Hi there, CP900 -
> I was just wondering how you were doing the other day. I'm still pretty crappy over here, but making tiny improvements. I agree with Andros, that you are still on a very small amount of Armour and you will probably just need to build your cortisol levels up before you can handle the raises.
> 
> From what I have heard from others and through my own research, adrenal + thyroid issues is a SLLLLOWWW road to healing. If cortisol levels (or iron) are not optimal, then one will have a very difficult time tolerating and raising thyroid medication. This has been my case, but I'm finding that as my cortisol levels are leveling out some and now that I have been supplementing with iron to get levels more optimal, I'm handing the raises a little better. How are your iron levels? Did you get all of these tested? Ferritin, % Saturation, TIBC and serum iron? http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...ended-labwork/
> 
> Andros and CP900, I found the Stop the Thyroid Madness website very helpful, especially the topic concerning adrenals:
> 
> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/
> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...-for-adrenals/
> 
> The second is concerning the T3 Circadian Method (T3CM) for thyroid and adrenals...CP900, you might want to look into that. There are many, many people finding excellent results with this protocol and they can successfully wean of the steroids, pregnenolone or HC. You can even use NDT with the T3CM. Paul Robinson, the author of the book, offers a lot of help on these forums.
> 
> CP900 you might want to join these FB groups, I am there as well:
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/stopthethyroidmadness/
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/STTMAdrenalsDiscussion/
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/T3onlySTTMdiscussion/ (this one is used for discussing the T3CM)
> 
> Many patients there really know there stuff about adrenals.
> 
> My latest saliva tests are looking pretty good these days, and I'm taking adrenal adaptogens to help support them as I am trying to raise my NDT...I'm actually on Nature-Throid now, prescribed by my doc, since I know that I have some food sensitivities and Nature-Throid (Westhroid) does not have any gluten, corn, peanut, rice, soy, yeast, egg, fillers. I have also started supplementing with iron since my iron levels were not the best and this can be one of the "hang-ups" for tolerating thyroid hormone.
> 
> Keep on trucking along...you will get there. The process is slow, but we'll get there.
> 
> Take Care!


Zugora, glad to see that you're still around!

I'm sorry to hear that you're still feeling pretty badly. However, it sounds like you're taking all of the right steps and working with your body to heal, and I'm glad that your adrenal labs are looking better.

I was just looking at your message and visited the "Circadian T3 Method" page on stopthethyroidmadness and I might have just had some things click into place for me. The second point on that list is that most of our cortisol is created 4 hours before we wake up.

Well, the adrenals will exert themselves trying to make up for a failing thyroid, right? What I've noticed with my body is that the best time of day for me is actually in the morning. Then around early-afternoon, in a very consistent fashion, extreme tiredness, brain fog, anxiety, and a "tingly" feeling in my forehead begin to set in. These are typically worst from early-afternoon to late-afternoon, and linger throughout the evening. But, they reset like magic when I sleep! When I wake up, I don't feel a "tingling" sensation, and I don't feel anxious. Ok, I still deal with tiredness and brain fog (as always), but they're not as extreme! I have a theory: my adrenals have been trying to aid my thyroid by dumping cortisol into my body in the morning, but this depletes the cortisol stores and results in an afternoon crash where I feel absolutely terrible. My adrenals simply aren't able to keep up, and are possibly trashed after (maybe) years of this going on.

My last saliva labs seem to support this, with a high cortisol level in the morning and a low-normal level in the early afternoon. This is all just a hunch though, and I probably didn't do it enough justice. In any case, I just sent in my 6-month salivary cortisol test so I'll have an updated look next week hopefully.

I will see to it that I look at the rest of those links and glean some more information.

By the way Zugora, did you ever have pregnenolone or progesterone measured? I know pregnenolone is the precursor to many different hormones (including cortisol), and progesterone can convert into cortisol. Just wondering.


----------



## Zugora

Hi CP900,
Are you on anything for the adrenals right now? I say that because they say you are supposed to be off anything that affects cortisol for 2 WEEKS prior to the saliva test. http://www.adrenalsweb.org/meds-supplements.php Stop the Thryoid Madness goes by the 2-week rule, too.

If your cortisol is high or "normal" in the morning, I thought I read that maybe T3CM might work, but I could be wrong. It would be worth posting your questions to those FB forums, though.

I never had pregnenolone tested, but I just discovered that my progesterone is low and I just started supplementing with that a few weeks ago. I hear low progesterone can also affect cortisol levels.

I know how tough this is to figure out! Hang in there!



CP900 said:


> Hey Andros, good to hear from you as well
> 
> Yes, I have been watching my diet very closely and have been very good at cutting out processed foods and sticking to more wholesome meals. Admittedly, gluten is the one item you mention that still makes it in to my diet, but in the form of local stone-ground bread.
> 
> *Sigh* yes it is a conundrum... I'm really counting on my doctor to help me figure this out. Not ever having been the patient type, this has been a very trying time for me.
> 
> Zugora, glad to see that you're still around!
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that you're still feeling pretty badly. However, it sounds like you're taking all of the right steps and working with your body to heal, and I'm glad that your adrenal labs are looking better.
> 
> I was just looking at your message and visited the "Circadian T3 Method" page on stopthethyroidmadness and I might have just had some things click into place for me. The second point on that list is that most of our cortisol is created 4 hours before we wake up.
> 
> Well, the adrenals will exert themselves trying to make up for a failing thyroid, right? What I've noticed with my body is that the best time of day for me is actually in the morning. Then around early-afternoon, in a very consistent fashion, extreme tiredness, brain fog, anxiety, and a "tingly" feeling in my forehead begin to set in. These are typically worst from early-afternoon to late-afternoon, and linger throughout the evening. But, they reset like magic when I sleep! When I wake up, I don't feel a "tingling" sensation, and I don't feel anxious. Ok, I still deal with tiredness and brain fog (as always), but they're not as extreme! I have a theory: my adrenals have been trying to aid my thyroid by dumping cortisol into my body in the morning, but this depletes the cortisol stores and results in an afternoon crash where I feel absolutely terrible. My adrenals simply aren't able to keep up, and are possibly trashed after (maybe) years of this going on.
> 
> My last saliva labs seem to support this, with a high cortisol level in the morning and a low-normal level in the early afternoon. This is all just a hunch though, and I probably didn't do it enough justice. In any case, I just sent in my 6-month salivary cortisol test so I'll have an updated look next week hopefully.
> 
> I will see to it that I look at the rest of those links and glean some more information.
> 
> By the way Zugora, did you ever have pregnenolone or progesterone measured? I know pregnenolone is the precursor to many different hormones (including cortisol), and progesterone can convert into cortisol. Just wondering.


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## CP900

DOH!

Yes, I am taking the adrenal combination still. Ugh my doctor never told me to stop before taking the saliva test. I'll talk with him and see if he thinks a re-do is in order.

I'm glad you found out the low progesterone issue. For me, I had very low pregnenolone and low testosterone and am treating those issues as well.

Yes, we will figure this out! Please keep in touch with any progress you make and I'll do the same


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