# my ranges



## jkee (Dec 5, 2009)

TSH 0.96 (0.27-4.20

FT3 2.0 (2.0-4.0)

FT4 1.89 (0.80-1.80) Am now taking 162.5 mcg of synthroid


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

jkee said:


> TSH 0.96 (0.27-4.20
> 
> FT3 2.0 (2.0-4.0)
> 
> FT4 1.89 (0.80-1.80) Am now taking 162.5 mcg of synthroid


Aha; thank you for the ranges otherwise I would not have had clue.

Your doctor needs to place you on a tiny bit of T3 (Cytomel) as you do not appear to be converting. That is why FT4 is above range as it is building up from not converting too fast and your FT3 is in the basement. I am surprised you have energy to type your post.

You are on a lot of Synthroid and clearly it is not helping you. Cytomel is King Pharmaceuticals if you want to research it. http://www.kingpharm.com/Products/index.cfm Scroll down for Cytomel.

It is very very strong. Starting dose should be 2.5 to 5 mcgs. and please note mcg. not mg..

Normally, I would recommend Armour or West Throid (porcine dessicated thyroid) but neither is available right now.

If I were doing this for you, I would put you on 88 mcgs. of Synthroid and 2/5 mcgs. of Cytomel and then in about a month have you lab and possibly raise the Cytomel to 5 mcgs..

Cytomel is only available in 5 mcgs. so you need a pill splitter.

If your doc won't think outside the box on this, please find a doctor who will. You are suffering and there is no reason or excuse for this.


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## jkee (Dec 5, 2009)

where should my ft 4 and 3 be? from the ranges she gave me the 3 is over 1.80 and does my tsh look right? I'm wondering if I should see someone who specializes in the thyroid.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

jkee said:


> where should my ft 4 and 3 be? from the ranges she gave me the 3 is over 1.80 and does my tsh look right? I'm wondering if I should see someone who specializes in the thyroid.


To feel well, most of us need FT3 and FT4 to be mid-range or a bit higher w/ TSH down around 1

You add the 2 numbers in the lab range and divide by 2 for mid-range.

This is what you posted so it's the FT4 that is over 1.80

Originally Posted by jkee 
TSH 0.96 (0.27-4.20

FT3 2.0 (2.0-4.0)

FT4 1.89 (0.80-1.80) Am now taking 162.5 mcg of synthroid

That is over the range which indicates to me that you are not converting "only" because your FT3 is in the basement. Plus, most people don't require such a high dose of Synthoid; that is another tell tale sign that you may not be converting.

Your FT3 is your energy source and also the hormone that maintains your body i.e. healing, thinking, sleeping etc.. When it is low like that, one is barely functioning.


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## chopper (Mar 4, 2007)

Andros,

Remember we discussed the idea that my doctor told me if I started Synthroid my T3 will eventually drop as my T4 rises?

Do you think this could be an example of that? It seems JKEE is getting too much T4. Since the body is essentially getting an overdose of T4, the body is compensating for the extra T4 by lowering the conversion of T4 into the very active T3.

Does this hold water with JKEE's case and after looking at my labs, do you think if I took Synthroid as prescribed my T3 would come down as well?

I am VERY curious to see if JKEE's T4 was lowered if his or her T3 would actually GO UP.

My theory is as the body requires more and more T4 to covert to T3 is takes all that it can and converts it. If you do not have enough T4 you could have a lower T4 and higher T3 as a result - its a survival mechanism as is with my case. On the other hand, if you are getting TOO MUCH T4 through meds, in order to protect your body from overdosing, your T4 stops converting and T3 starts to lower so you get a really high T4 and low T3, like JKEE's case.

This is purely speculation on my behalf. One of my endos said this would happen to me if I started taking meds. It appears this case is the exact opposite to my example but I could not know for sure unless JKEE lowered his or her T4 meds and his or her T3 raised up on its own as a result of the new lower T4 dose.

Any thoughts about this theory?


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

nasdaqphil said:


> Andros,
> 
> Remember we discussed the idea that my doctor told me if I started Synthroid my T3 will eventually drop as my T4 rises?
> 
> ...


Well; I do wish I had a better education in this field. Admittedly, there is much I do not understand.

I do know that when patients take a T3 supplement, the T4 is suppressed and that is considered to be normal. Since T3 is the active hormone. I have never heard of someone taking T4 and thereby suppressing the T3 but that does not mean it is not so.

You may find this interesting and it was also noted that jkee's TSH is like 0.89.

http://www.holtorfmed.com/nss-folder/printable_pdf/thyroid/reverse_r3_ thebest.pdf

How are you feeling and are you ready for your appt. in Feb.??? Is it 2/4??


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## jkee (Dec 5, 2009)

My dr. said to make an appointment in 6 months because she said everything is in the normal range. I looked up Cytomel and it indicated that some bodybuilders use this to speed up their metabolism for cuts and it can be a hassel to use this? I am getting soo confused.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

jkee said:


> My dr. said to make an appointment in 6 months because she said everything is in the normal range. I looked up Cytomel and it indicated that some bodybuilders use this to speed up their metabolism for cuts and it can be a hassel to use this? I am getting soo confused.


Did you not go to the link I provided for King Pharmaceuticals which is a very credible source of information about Cytomel? Many pharmaceuticals are misused much to my dismay. When used appropriately as intended they can and do save lives.

I know people who are diabetic, sit down and gorge themselves and then shoot up w/ insulin 3, 4 and even 5 times a day! Woe unto them.

Also, the ranges you posted for the Free T3 don't look right to me. The ranges for Free T3 should look more like this...................

normal is 230-420 pg/dL No 2 labs use the same ranges so to the left is only an example for Free T3 ranges.

Have you asked your doctor to run the antibodies' tests as per my suggestion? If so, what was the outcome of that?

When you have the time, I would like a list of your specific symptoms that you are having right now.


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## jkee (Dec 5, 2009)

I have called her to inform her what you told me and will say something about the antibodies. I understand what you mean by people misusing Cytomel. From what I've been reading today and from you it looks like lowering my synthroid and taking cytomel makes sense. I'm waiting for her to call back.

One of the things I read was: If currently taking Synthroid their FT4 level is usually at or above the high end (mine is 1.89..range 0.80-1.80) of it's normal range and the FT3 level is below (mine2.0..range 2.0-4.0)...then may add 5-12.5 mcg of Cytomel after breakfast an supper...and my TSH is 0.96

I don't understand when they have a range for the FT3 210-440 pg/dl.

My symtoms started around 4months ago I started putting on weight. I'm not overweight and eat very healthy, workout 6 days a week. My energy was very low, not sleeping straight through the night, felt like my skin was more dry(maybe because of winter) eyebrows thinning,

Dr. said I was maybe going through menopause. I'm 52 and had a partial hysterectomy at 25. It's been alot to take in learning about the thryroid. It's always been just to take the dr. at her word when she would say everything is in it's normal range.

I've noticed that when my tsh gets too much over 1 my energy was low. She said that some people do better with a tsh like mine.

From the info. it's the ft3 does 90% of the work of the thyroid.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

jkee said:


> I have called her to inform her what you told me and will say something about the antibodies. I understand what you mean by people misusing Cytomel. From what I've been reading today and from you it looks like lowering my synthroid and taking cytomel makes sense. I'm waiting for her to call back.
> 
> One of the things I read was: If currently taking Synthroid their FT4 level is usually at or above the high end (mine is 1.89..range 0.80-1.80) of it's normal range and the FT3 level is below (mine2.0..range 2.0-4.0)...then may add 5-12.5 mcg of Cytomel after breakfast an supper...and my TSH is 0.96
> 
> ...


Yep; w/o FT3 in our bodies, we are dead meat.

Just a tip from the experienced. Cytomel is very very powerful. I started on 2.5 mcgs.; used a pill splitter to split the 5 mcgs.. Those who start on higher doses usually go hyperthyroid and it ain't pretty. They usually end up in the ER.

I also work out 6 days a week. We are of like minds. I was doing great on my Armour and am apprehensive about the Cytomel but there is nothing to be done at this time. I just have to suck it up as they say at the gym.

I absolutely do not convert so there is quite the dilemma.

I would double check your info on the FREE T3 because we could (or at least I) could be way out in left field here if info is incorrect. I do not want to be giving misinformation.

My last lab 2 weeks ago for Free T3 looks like this................ FT3 299 Range 230 - 420 pg/dl


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

jkee said:


> I have called her to inform her what you told me and will say something about the antibodies. I understand what you mean by people misusing Cytomel. From what I've been reading today and from you it looks like lowering my synthroid and taking cytomel makes sense. I'm waiting for her to call back.
> 
> One of the things I read was: If currently taking Synthroid their FT4 level is usually at or above the high end (mine is 1.89..range 0.80-1.80) of it's normal range and the FT3 level is below (mine2.0..range 2.0-4.0)...then may add 5-12.5 mcg of Cytomel after breakfast an supper...and my TSH is 0.96
> 
> ...


Also, have you ever had a ferritin test? Please read this.......

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/


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## jkee (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm also going to suggest the ferritin test to rule that out. 
You said you are on 2.5 of cytomel do you take that with your armour or at separte times. I take my synthroid at night since it's the only time I have on a complete empty stomach and away from my calcium supplements.

I've read when you take the cytomel it needs to be taken 2 times a day, are they referring to if you are on 5mcg?

When I talk to my dr. I'm going to put it to her like this: I know you want me my tsh to stay around 1 but it looks like my ft4 is too high and my ft3 is too low even though it's not below 2 it's at the bottom range. It looks like my ft4 is not converting enough. By giving me something for my ft3 would it bring my tsh up a little and put my ft4 and ft3 in the more normal range? Then in turn I'm thinking it would help my energy levels and do blood work every 5-6 weeks to see how I'm doing.

To me with all the reading and info. here in my head and thinking this makes sense?


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

jkee said:


> I'm also going to suggest the ferritin test to rule that out.
> You said you are on 2.5 of cytomel do you take that with your armour or at separte times. I take my synthroid at night since it's the only time I have on a complete empty stomach and away from my calcium supplements.
> 
> I've read when you take the cytomel it needs to be taken 2 times a day, are they referring to if you are on 5mcg?
> ...


One exception; taking T3 would bring the TSH down but that is quite okay "provided" your Free T3 and Free T4 are within the designated range and that you feel well. Clinical evaluation is just as important as the labs are.

I take all my thyroxine replacement in the morning. This is working well for me. Others say that about splitting the dose to twice a day but I don't buy it.

Cytomel has a half-life of 24 hours. If you take the other too late in the day, you may not sleep. And really, there would be no point to doing that.

Let us all know what your doc has to say.


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## jkee (Dec 5, 2009)

So you're saying my tsh would probably go over 1, and can the synthroid still be taken at night and the cytomel in the morning?


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

jkee said:


> So you're saying my tsh would probably go over 1, and can the synthroid still be taken at night and the cytomel in the morning?


No; Thyroxine replacement makes the TSH go down.

Example...............My TSH is always either 0.03 or 0.02. That is very low. This is a good thing because it suppresses the antibodies and the autoantibodies. When patients have Hashimoto's or thyroid cancer, the protocul "is" to keep the TSH suppressed. I have had neither but I have Lupus antibodies as well as Graves' antibodies and Sjogren's.. Keeping my TSH way low keeps me in good stead.

The trick is that the Free T3 and Free T4 must be only in mid-range or a bit higher. They cannot be over the range or even at the very tip top of the range for that would usually render the patient hyperthyroid.

So, naturally just the right amount of Synthroid and Cytomel is essential. And it has to be the right amount for you. No two of us are alike in our requirements.

You could take your T4 at night and the Cytomel in the morning; by all means. Do you take your Synthroid at night now? Any special reason? Are you sleeping well?


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## jkee (Dec 5, 2009)

I've always taken my Synthroid at night with no problem. I started do that about 10 years ago when I was told it had to be on an empty stomach and away from my calcium supplements. I starting eating first thing in the morning since I work out and then every 2-3 hours after. I get shakey if I go more than 3 hours of not eating so night works great.

When I was in the hospital they gave me my synthroid in the morning and told them I took it at night and they were surprised too. Thing is they gave me my med. and then fed me right after. One nurse told me her doctor never told her not to take with food or calcium. She wondered why it wasn't working. Some doctors really surprise me!


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

jkee said:


> I've always taken my Synthroid at night with no problem. I started do that about 10 years ago when I was told it had to be on an empty stomach and away from my calcium supplements. I starting eating first thing in the morning since I work out and then every 2-3 hours after. I get shakey if I go more than 3 hours of not eating so night works great.
> 
> When I was in the hospital they gave me my synthroid in the morning and told them I took it at night and they were surprised too. Thing is they gave me my med. and then fed me right after. One nurse told me her doctor never told her not to take with food or calcium. She wondered why it wasn't working. Some doctors really surprise me!


Well good for you. That is a very very good schedule and balancing act. I eat 6 mini-meals a day. Keeps the glucose stable. I also have insulin resistance. It's a battle. :anim_63:


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