# I am switching to Armour



## HeidiBR

Hi all!

It has been a while since I have posted. I was very tired of blaming my symptoms on my thyroid so I took a break. I went to new medical practice today, and it might be that it is my thyroid all along!

I thought I was having menopausal issues which accounted for the weight gain, etc... And I may well be having that, too. I went to an Sally Joseph is a an osteopathic women's health nurse practitioner who incidentally has been hypo since age 20 so she gets it. She ordered blood work for all my hormones, and also reverse T3. She thinks that I am not converting T3 well, or that my body is not able to use it properly. She switched me to Armour 60 mg twice a day on an empty stomach, and I am supposed to chew it up. That seems like a lot of Armour to me? I am currently on 112 mcg Synthroid and 5 mcg Cytomel once daily.

She also commented that it is almost criminal to treat a Hashimoto's patient with only T4.

She also wants me off the Vitamin D3 50,000U twice a week and to take 2,000U daily of the regular D.

I am supposed to go back to see her in 6 weeks to evaluate how I am doing on the Armour, and then she will also test insulin, etc...

My appetite is raging and my quest for sugar, fats and sweets is worse than nicotine fit I had as a smoker. My weight has never been higher. I have never really rebounded physically or mentally from my husband being sick.

We'll see how I do on the Armour. It is a heck of a lot cheaper - I priced it through Medco and it will cost me $11 for a 90 day supply versus $65 for my Synthroid and generic Cytomel.

This NP seems to think I will do better on the Armour. We'll see.

Any thoughts or experiences for those that have made the conversion from synthetic to porcine?

Thanks all!


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Hi all!
> 
> It has been a while since I have posted. I was very tired of blaming my symptoms on my thyroid so I took a break. I went to new medical practice today, and it might be that it is my thyroid all along!
> 
> I thought I was having menopausal issues which accounted for the weight gain, etc... And I may well be having that, too. I went to an Sally Joseph is a an osteopathic women's health nurse practitioner who incidentally has been hypo since age 20 so she gets it. She ordered blood work for all my hormones, and also reverse T3. She thinks that I am not converting T3 well, or that my body is not able to use it properly. She switched me to Armour 60 mg twice a day on an empty stomach, and I am supposed to chew it up. That seems like a lot of Armour to me? I am currently on 112 mcg Synthroid and 5 mcg Cytomel once daily.
> 
> She also commented that it is almost criminal to treat a Hashimoto's patient with only T4.
> 
> She also wants me off the Vitamin D3 50,000U twice a week and to take 2,000U daily of the regular D.
> 
> I am supposed to go back to see her in 6 weeks to evaluate how I am doing on the Armour, and then she will also test insulin, etc...
> 
> My appetite is raging and my quest for sugar, fats and sweets is worse than nicotine fit I had as a smoker. My weight has never been higher. I have never really rebounded physically or mentally from my husband being sick.
> 
> We'll see how I do on the Armour. It is a heck of a lot cheaper - I priced it through Medco and it will cost me $11 for a 90 day supply versus $65 for my Synthroid and generic Cytomel.
> 
> This NP seems to think I will do better on the Armour. We'll see.
> 
> Any thoughts or experiences for those that have made the conversion from synthetic to porcine?
> 
> Thanks all!


I think you will fare much better on the Armour but I do question such a high dose to begin on.

Each grain (60 mg.) contains 38 mcg. of T4 and 9 mcg. of T3. So............it's not the T4 we are worried about but the impact of 18 mcgs. of T3 all at once.

We will just have to wait and see I guess; I don't want anything to happen to you.

Not sure if there is any benefit to chewing it. I have read that there is not.

You will have to let us know how it goes. I am so glad you got Armour and also very glad you found a new doc who thinks outside of the box. This is very very good.

Do as she says and just be alert for any hyper symptoms whereupon you can give her a call just to be on the safe side.










You "know" me; always erring on the side of caution.


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## HeidiBR

Thanks Andros for the info. It is indeed a lot of T3 and I think I will take 1/2 doses for a couple of days. She seems to think that either I don't convert well, or I need more, or some reverse T3 stuff is going on.

I will indeed be very careful and thank you for caring!


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Thanks Andros for the info. It is indeed a lot of T3 and I think I will take 1/2 doses for a couple of days. She seems to think that either I don't convert well, or I need more, or some reverse T3 stuff is going on.
> 
> I will indeed be very careful and thank you for caring!


Give Luis a holiday hug from me!!


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## HeidiBR

Thank you - I will - when he gets home from a business trip  How amazing to be able to say THAT!


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Thank you - I will - when he gets home from a business trip  How amazing to be able to say THAT!


You got that right!


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## McKenna

Hi Heidi,
So glad you got Armour! 
I have to say that I'm a little concerned with the high starting dose also. Armour really packs a punch and takes a while to get used to. Every time my dose is adjusted it takes a while for my body to get used to it. Keep an eye out for hyper symptoms. My advice is to not take that second dose too late in the day, no later than noon or so or it may keep you up.


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## HeidiBR

McKenna - thanks. The dose does seem high, so I will indeed clarify it with her. She did tell me to take it twice a day - but I don't know if she means two pills - or split one.


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## HeidiBR

I just called and checked. It is correct. Two pills a day.


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## webster2

Heidi, I just started 1 grain of Armour today. I was taking 112mcg of levo, and wasn't converting well. For 2 years, I thought my thyroid symptoms were menopause...the symptoms are so vague that it seemed plausible. I wish you the best with the new medication.


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## HeidiBR

Webster, you are taking 60 once per day? I am also on 112 Synthroid. If I am taking two 60 of Armour per day - haven't I doubled my dose?


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## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> Webster, you are taking 60 once per day? I am also on 112 Synthroid. If I am taking two 60 of Armour per day - haven't I doubled my dose?


Yup, once a day. She said we'll go up slowly, by half grains or so.. I don't know if you have doubled your dose, but you were taking cytomel too, correct? I wasn't. I wanted to, but my endo said "no, and no to Armour too", so I fired her.

I know I wasn't meant to live being tired all of the time, and with no stamina. There are other options and I wanted to try them. Armour has been around forever. So that's what I am doing. I worked my longest day today since I had surgery in July, and I do not feel exhausted.

Have you switched yet? If so, did you notice any changes?


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## HeidiBR

I was taking Cytomel. So, my former 112 mcg of Synthroid and .05 mcg of Cytomel is approximately 90 of Armour. I wasn't having any real symptoms except for a very slow metabolism. Like VERY slow. So, well see if all this T3 perks it up. You and I are starting at the same time, so I will be very curious to see what your experience is. I'll keep posting here on mine. I start taking mine tomorrow.

I think we are both librarians, also?

My fingers are crossed for you - for both of us


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## HeidiBR

I started the Armour today. I feel great. I actually feel more energetic but maybe it is the placebo effect. I do feel a bit speeded up. But in a good way, not a heart palp way.

I chewed the first dose and forgot to chew the second dose.


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Webster, you are taking 60 once per day? I am also on 112 Synthroid. If I am taking two 60 of Armour per day - haven't I doubled my dose?


Armour has 38 mcg. of T4 and 9 mcg. of T3 per grain (60 mgs.)

But I would like to put in my 2 ¢ worth. Armour is a completely different pharmaceutical. That is why these things are patented. As far as I am concerned there is no equivalent.

Starting over on a low dose as per the protocul is probably the best course. Also, the patient does not need a lot of T4 when taking T3. The patient just needs enough for peripheral deiodination to take place.

The reason I am so adamant about this is that I do care and I want it to work for all who aspire to take it. If done improperly and the person gets overdosed, they may never be able to tolerate it again. I have seen this happen many times over the years.

http://www.armourthyroid.com/

Off the platform now. LOL!!!


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## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> I was taking Cytomel. So, my former 112 mcg of Synthroid and .05 mcg of Cytomel is approximately 90 of Armour. I wasn't having any real symptoms except for a very slow metabolism. Like VERY slow. So, well see if all this T3 perks it up. You and I are starting at the same time, so I will be very curious to see what your experience is. I'll keep posting here on mine. I start taking mine tomorrow.
> 
> I think we are both librarians, also?
> 
> My fingers are crossed for you - for both of us


I can't say I was having horrible symptoms on the Levo but my FT3 was really at the bottom of the range. Also, I felt I should have more energy...well, some energy, and I didn't. I was tired all of the time even after waking...that's no way to live if there is something else out there that could change that. Up until last spring, I was a really active person. And, I want to be again.

I have felt pretty good these past two days. My doggie girl and I did an extra mile on our walk. I think we'll go out again. The weather is too nice not to take advantage of it.

Yes, I am a librarian too! My daughter is also a librarian, could not convince my son to join us!

I've got to go look this "peripheral deiodination " up....

Let's cross our fingers and hope for the best! It will happen!


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> I started the Armour today. I feel great. I actually feel more energetic but maybe it is the placebo effect. I do feel a bit speeded up. But in a good way, not a heart palp way.
> 
> I chewed the first dose and forgot to chew the second dose.


How does it feel to be "alive?" What a difference; yes? Good for you!


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## HeidiBR

Yes! I feel really good! Cheerful. I think my body loves T3 - I think it thinks it is the nicotine it got for 29 years but hasn't had for a year and half 

Andros, I appreciate your concern. If I hadn't been on the Cytomel, no way would I have taken this full dose of Armour as prescribed.

It's funny - my FT3 was never at the bottom of the range but it felt like my body wasn't using it with the Cytomel. With the Armour, it feels like it is "getting" the T3 - but then again, it is a much higher dose than I was on with the Cytomel.

So far so good Webster. We two librarians are going to kick @#$% on this stuff


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Yes! I feel really good! Cheerful. I think my body loves T3 - I think it thinks it is the nicotine it got for 29 years but hasn't had for a year and half
> 
> Andros, I appreciate your concern. If I hadn't been on the Cytomel, no way would I have taken this full dose of Armour as prescribed.
> 
> It's funny - my FT3 was never at the bottom of the range but it felt like my body wasn't using it with the Cytomel. With the Armour, it feels like it is "getting" the T3 - but then again, it is a much higher dose than I was on with the Cytomel.
> 
> So far so good Webster. We two librarians are going to kick @#$% on this stuff


So far so good is what we want to hear.

{{{{Heidi}}}}


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## HeidiBR

So far so good - I am feeling really, really great. Stomach is a little rumbly at times but not bothersome. I am definitely feeling the effects of the increased T3 - in a good way. Bloating is decreasing and I am peeing a lot. I feel bright, alert, happy and generally well.

Hopefully this is going to endure.

So far though, I really like this med.


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## Octavia

Wonderful!


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## HeidiBR

It is still going well. No sugar cravings or sugar binges. I am happy, upbeat, smiley.

What I am afraid of? That it won't last. I am afraid I feel so well because I still have the Synthroid T4 in my body and the Armour is in addition. Once the Synthroid is out of my body - how will I feel?

Anyway, so far so good. I have lost two pounds. Only 18 more to go!


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> It is still going well. No sugar cravings or sugar binges. I am happy, upbeat, smiley.
> 
> What I am afraid of? That it won't last. I am afraid I feel so well because I still have the Synthroid T4 in my body and the Armour is in addition. Once the Synthroid is out of my body - how will I feel?
> 
> Anyway, so far so good. I have lost two pounds. Only 18 more to go!


You should feel better; you don't need all that T4 as the T3 is your active hormone.

Good for you on the 2 lbs; that is a real coup. At least in my book it is!


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## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> It is still going well. No sugar cravings or sugar binges. I am happy, upbeat, smiley.
> 
> What I am afraid of? That it won't last. I am afraid I feel so well because I still have the Synthroid T4 in my body and the Armour is in addition. Once the Synthroid is out of my body - how will I feel?
> 
> Anyway, so far so good. I have lost two pounds. Only 18 more to go!


Wooohoo! Congrats! I feel good too. This must be what our bodies needed/ wanted. I am able to be busy during the day. My head feels less foggy. All is well!

I have the same concerns but know that i have a long way to go as far as upping the dose. I am enjoying this, and am glad all is going well for you too!


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## HeidiBR

Excellent Webster! What is your dose? Mine is 60 mcg twice a day (total of 120 mcg). I think that is two grains.

I take mine on an empty stomach, and chew them.

Andros - I agree, it is the T3. Love the @#$%^ out of it.


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## webster2

I am on one grain, currently. I feel much better already! Pretty amazing stuff, isn't it?!?/  Glad you are feeling much better too!


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Excellent Webster! What is your dose? Mine is 60 mcg twice a day (total of 120 mcg). I think that is two grains.
> 
> I take mine on an empty stomach, and chew them.
> 
> Andros - I agree, it is the T3. Love the @#$%^ out of it.


ROLF! This is wonderful!!! Truly wonderful!


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## I DClaire

Andros said:


> How does it feel to be "alive?"


What a coincidence! I told my husband today that I can function BUT I don't feel like myself - "I don't feel alive." I'm here, I'm doing things, but I have no sense of real energy or being myself.

I used to feel like whatever energy I had came from deep within my whole body - maybe I had a lot of energy, maybe I only had a little but I _FELT_ whatever energy and stamina I had deep within myself. It was who I was.

Now, I feel like whatever energy I have is only in my arms or only at that level of my body - it doesn't feel at all like it used to. I can function but it is entirely with no sense of natural energy propelling me and I'm becoming more concerned every day.


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## webster2

I feel great! I have energy!


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## HeidiBR

I am energy too but a little less this AM. I am laughing a lot more the last week. I feel lighter in spirit. What I find amazing is that I am able to not binge on sugar all day long. I wonder if just cutting out the 400-500 calories a day of cakes, cookies and candy will help me lose weight? In a normal person it would for sure, but with me, there is no telling.

I wonder if some of this placebo effect.

I had some blood work done when I started the Armour

VITAMIN B12	1033	200-1100 pg/mL
PROGESTERONE	2.0 - I don't know what this means - see * below
FSH	31.2 mIU/mL 23-116 is postmeopausal 
TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, LC/MS/MS	24	range = 2-45 ng/dL 
FREE TESTOSTERONE	1.4	range = 0.1-6.4 pg/mL S
ESTRADIOL	99 - less than 27 is postmenopausal

*This is a good example of how confusing these reference ranges are: For Progesterone these are the ranges:

Follicular Phase <1
Luteal Phase 2.6-21.5
Post menopausal <0.5

1st trimester pregnancy 4.1-34.0
2nd trimester 24-76
3rd trimester 52-302

So... my free testosterone is on the low end of the range. But the other hormones seem to be OK.


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## Andros

I DClaire said:


> What a coincidence! I told my husband today that I can function BUT I don't feel like myself - "I don't feel alive." I'm here, I'm doing things, but I have no sense of real energy or being myself.
> 
> I used to feel like whatever energy I had came from deep within my whole body - maybe I had a lot of energy, maybe I only had a little but I _FELT_ whatever energy and stamina I had deep within myself. It was who I was.
> 
> Now, I feel like whatever energy I have is only in my arms or only at that level of my body - it doesn't feel at all like it used to. I can function but it is entirely with no sense of natural energy propelling me and I'm becoming more concerned every day.


Most of us w/o a thyroid do far better on Armour. You may wish to find a doctor who shares this point of view.

When do you next get your labs? Will your doctor do the full panel of TSH, FREE T3 and FREE T4 so we can "see" where you are at w/this?


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## I DClaire

Dadgumit, Andros! You post a cute picture like that and suddenly I can't even remember what you just asked me! 

I'm not due to have labs again until after Christmas - I see my endocrinologist on the 29th and usually have lab work one week before seeing her.

I gingerly touched on the subject of Amour the last time I saw her and she responded something to the effect that there were other options to try but I'm sure she wouldn't want to do anything this soon. By the next time I see her, I may have a solid idea if Synthroid is working for me or not. My gut feeling is that it is not.

I'm O.K. BUT I'm pretty much convinced the way I feel isn't the way I should feel or possibly could feel. There is a tiredness to everything I do - I feel like I'm almost always pushing myself and a little of that leaves me exhausted.

I feel like I've aged 20 years in the past couple of months. My ordinarily silky fine hair looks and feels like straw. My skin feels dry and puffy. And, I often feel bloated for no reason whatsoever. All I really want to do is sit down and go to sleep...but I cannot fall asleep except at night and I'm sleeping quite well at night.


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## Andros

I DClaire said:


> Dadgumit, Andros! You post a cute picture like that and suddenly I can't even remember what you just asked me!
> 
> I'm not due to have labs again until after Christmas - I see my endocrinologist on the 29th and usually have lab work one week before seeing her.
> 
> I gingerly touched on the subject of Amour the last time I saw her and she responded something to the effect that there were other options to try but I'm sure she wouldn't want to do anything this soon. By the next time I see her, I may have a solid idea if Synthroid is working for me or not. My gut feeling is that it is not.
> 
> I'm O.K. BUT I'm pretty much convinced the way I feel isn't the way I should feel or possibly could feel. There is a tiredness to everything I do - I feel like I'm almost always pushing myself and a little of that leaves me exhausted.
> 
> I feel like I've aged 20 years in the past couple of months. My ordinarily silky fine hair looks and feels like straw. My skin feels dry and puffy. And, I often feel bloated for no reason whatsoever. All I really want to do is sit down and go to sleep...but I cannot fall asleep except at night and I'm sleeping quite well at night.


Thyroid disease is hard on all bodily parts; inner and outter.

Glad you liked the pugs and don't worry so much. You have such a full plate right now.

The pendulum always swings the other way; good times are ahead.


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## HeidiBR

One Week of Armour - observations.

I am no longer euphoric like I was the first few days. I chalk that up to not having the Synthroid in my body on top of the Armour.

I notice that towards the end of the night, I feel a bit hypo-y again; cold, achy, low mood, etc... This really does seem to be short acting stuff because of the T3, I am thinking.

I still feel way better on the Armour than the Synthroid and Cytomel. I just think I wasn't getting enough T3 with my Cytomel; it was a tiny dose.

Anyway, one week in and I free very good.


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## webster2

Me too, I feel good. I actually made it through my first whole day of work since July. It is a wonder I still have a job. Today I am chasing a 15 month old. I feel pretty good. I also am more clear headed, such a huge relief! 

I am taking a bunch of supplements to make up for things I am deficient in ( iron, ferritin Vitamin D..all the usual suspects), I think when those kick in....I will feel fabulous!


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## Alicia123

Congrats!!
I am so happy for you guys! This gives me hope.


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## webster2

Yes, there is hope. Look at our mentor, Andros, she's amazing!


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## Andros

Alicia123 said:


> Congrats!!
> I am so happy for you guys! This gives me hope.


This is the place of hope; Alicia!!! You are going to be fine; better than ever!


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## HeidiBR

Yes, Webster - thank you Andros!

I find it so interesting that some people cannot take Armour because it makes them jittery. My body seems to eats up the T3 like I used to eat up milk chocolate


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Yes, Webster - thank you Andros!
> 
> I find it so interesting that some people cannot take Armour because it makes them jittery. My body seems to eats up the T3 like I used to eat up milk chocolate


They may have low ferritin which is a #1 culprit OR still have all or part of their thyroid which is unstable meaning one day it puts out, another day not. If the patient still has their thyroid and it is non-functioning, the success rate is also very good.

Makes it impossible to titrate the med with a unhealthy thyroid intact; especially with those meds containing T3.

This has been my personal observation over many years.


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## HeidiBR

Except my thyroid is still functioning. I think.


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Except my thyroid is still functioning. I think.


But you may not be converting; I think. LOL! That was the "other" scenario I forgot to mention.


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## HeidiBR

Yes, I think you are right about that


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## I DClaire

Alicia123 said:


> Congrats!!
> I am so happy for you guys! This gives me hope.


Me, too! All of the above! I felt so horrible last night my husband wanted me to go to the ER. Among other things, I'm cold and cannot get comfortable...think chills like muscle spasms into the night.

All day today I've had on my cotton pajama bottoms underneath two pair of sweatpants, my trusty pink faux-turtleneck, a sweatshirt, a heavy flannel shirt AND a heavy quilt lined coat AND I've had a blanket wrapped around me since 5:00 P.M.

My calf muscles are killing me and my arm muscles feel weak. I thought last night I must be coming down with something but eventually I fell asleep and awoke tired, as usual, but not sick. I've worn all this garb to take Mother to her weekly pain management appointment.

I don't honestly think I could feel much worse. Paul insisted we go out to eat late this afternoon and I started crying. I feel lost - I thought surgery was going to give me a life back...but I feel as bad as a person can feel and not be hospitalized.

It's 7:00 P.M., I couldn't go to choir practice (in preparation for a pageant), and I'm fixing to drag myself to bed.


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## webster2

IDC, I went through feeling very cold, like it was in my bones. I resorted to using hot hands on my chest for some relief, at one point. My muscles felt very tight. I can't say that it was worse on any one spot but my arms and thighs killed me especially if activity called for them to be used. I think these are signs of hypo, but I am not for sure that is true.

When I went to the endo appointment, I was shivering so they gave me a blanket. Being cold like that sucks the life right out of you.

I feel much better now. I was tired last night, but I had chased a toddler all day. I could not have done that recently.

I wish you the best, my friend.


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## I DClaire

I slept 14 hours last night - I just woke up and I feel like I must go back to bed. I thought I was doing better...now I'm totally exhausted. I don't really believe I could get up and go see a doctor, I have no energy whatsoever.


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## Andros

I DClaire said:


> I slept 14 hours last night - I just woke up and I feel like I must go back to bed. I thought I was doing better...now I'm totally exhausted. I don't really believe I could get up and go see a doctor, I have no energy whatsoever.


This is no way a good thing! You must not be converting.

Somehow you are going to have to get up and out to get labs of TSH, FREE T3 and FREE T4.

Make sure you check the lab slip that the doctor checks the FREES.

And your ferritin? How is that?

Very worried here; and I do mean very!


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## HeidiBR

IDClaire -

Something is not right. You either need more Synthroid, or you need some T3.

Please go to a doctor. Is there any way you could find a doctor who is willing to look at prescribing you some T3, whether it is synthetic or Armour? Clearly, the T4 Synthroid is not working for you; either you do not convert well as Andros mentioned, or you need more Synthroid.

You can always go to a pharmacist and ask which docs or nurse practicioners prescribe Armour if you want to try that.


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## HeidiBR

Today's observation: my face is more puffy than it was before I started taking Armour. Almost as puffy as it was before I started taking any thyroid replacement meds.

I get blood work next week; I am part of a clinical trial for something totally unrelated and they are testing my blood work, including TSH, FT3, and FT4. Nice, free perk. So, I'll be able to tell if I am getting enough replacement on the Armour.

My guess is no, since my face is so puffy.


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Today's observation: my face is more puffy than it was before I started taking Armour. Almost as puffy as it was before I started taking any thyroid replacement meds.
> 
> I get blood work next week; I am part of a clinical trial for something totally unrelated and they are testing my blood work, including TSH, FT3, and FT4. Nice, free perk. So, I'll be able to tell if I am getting enough replacement on the Armour.
> 
> My guess is no, since my face is so puffy.


Gosh; there are many reasons for a puffy face but I do hope you get those labs next week and let us see.

Now........................; if the puffy goes away tomorrow, what will you think? The $64,000.00 question!


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## I DClaire

Andros said:


> This is no way a good thing! You must not be converting.
> 
> Somehow you are going to have to get up and out to get labs of TSH, FREE T3 and FREE T4.
> 
> Make sure you check the lab slip that the doctor checks the FREES.
> 
> And your ferritin? How is that?
> 
> Very worried here; and I do mean very!


Things are not going well at all. This morning I put some food on the stove (frozen meat) to slowly thaw and boil...then fell sound sleep. I woke up to the dog barking and the smoke alarm blaring. Smoke was so thick we had to open all doors and windows and sit outside for over an hour.

My endocrinologist will not see me before December 29. I have my lab orders for one week before that appointment:

TSH
T4 FREE
T3 FREE
Renal Function Panel

One time I asked about the Ferritin, etc., and she totally blew me off. Maybe I can get my internist to include those when I see him in January.

I don't know what's happening and I'm so tired and frustrated, I'm about at the point where I can't keep chasing after something totally by myself. The idea about asking the pharmacist for a lead is a good one - she and I have a good relationship. My endocrinologist is good but she does everything by the book. I actually was in her office yesterday (same building where we took Mother) and they insisted it would take a month to know how my body was doing with the recent slight change in my Synthroid...which I don't really think accomplished much, if anything.


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## Koof

I DClaire said:


> Things are not going well at all. This morning I put some food on the stove (frozen meat) to slowly thaw and boil...then fell sound sleep. I woke up to the dog barking and the smoke alarm blaring. Smoke was so thick we had to open all doors and windows and sit outside for over an hour.


It's so not funny, but I think many of of have done something similar. I've burnt rice because I was cooking and forgot to turn down the heat after it boiled. Sadly, it wasn't just once or twice either  The last time I nearly completely ruined the pot.

I hope something gives soon!


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## Octavia

I DClaire said:


> Me, too! All of the above! I felt so horrible last night *my husband wanted me to go to the ER*. Among other things, I'm cold and cannot get comfortable...think chills like muscle spasms into the night.
> 
> I don't honestly think I could feel much worse. Paul insisted we go out to eat late this afternoon and I started crying. I feel lost - I thought surgery was going to give me a life back...but *I feel as bad as a person can feel and not be hospitalized.*
> It's 7:00 P.M., I couldn't go to choir practice (in preparation for a pageant), and I'm fixing to drag myself to bed.


IDC, based on your recent posts, I think I may agree with your husband. I strongly do not recommend waiting until the end of the month for labwork/doc visit...you need something much more aggressive. You SHOULD be feeling better after your surgery (you already know this), and clearly, something is not working right for you.

Is the ER an option for you? Seriously...is it? I'm very concerned.


----------



## Andros

I DClaire said:


> Things are not going well at all. This morning I put some food on the stove (frozen meat) to slowly thaw and boil...then fell sound sleep. I woke up to the dog barking and the smoke alarm blaring. Smoke was so thick we had to open all doors and windows and sit outside for over an hour.
> 
> My endocrinologist will not see me before December 29. I have my lab orders for one week before that appointment:
> 
> TSH
> T4 FREE
> T3 FREE
> Renal Function Panel
> 
> One time I asked about the Ferritin, etc., and she totally blew me off. Maybe I can get my internist to include those when I see him in January.
> 
> I don't know what's happening and I'm so tired and frustrated, I'm about at the point where I can't keep chasing after something totally by myself. The idea about asking the pharmacist for a lead is a good one - she and I have a good relationship. My endocrinologist is good but she does everything by the book. I actually was in her office yesterday (same building where we took Mother) and they insisted it would take a month to know how my body was doing with the recent slight change in my Synthroid...which I don't really think accomplished much, if anything.


Doctor shopping comes to mind here. You should not have to suffer like this; it is unconscionable.

I am sorry about what happened and thank goodness for "best friends" and smoke alarms.


----------



## HeidiBR

It has been two weeks since I switched to Armour.
I sill feel like a million bucks.
My mood is happy, happy.
The puffy face has abated.
The feeling of general doom is gone.
I got a period for the first time since the summer.
My weight is slowly coming off (I think I am down 4 pounds) but no magic there - my appetite is under control and I am eating a lot less. I don't feel deprived.
I never felt this good on Synthroid, or even on Synthroid/Cytomel.
I imagine it is the increase in the T3 that the Armour has.
Armour seems to really work for me!


----------



## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> It has been two weeks since I switched to Armour.
> I sill feel like a million bucks.
> My mood is happy, happy.
> The puffy face has abated.
> The feeling of general doom is gone.
> I got a period for the first time since the summer.
> My weight is slowly coming off (I think I am down 4 pounds) but no magic there - my appetite is under control and I am eating a lot less. I don't feel deprived.
> I never felt this good on Synthroid, or even on Synthroid/Cytomel.
> I imagine it is the increase in the T3 that the Armour has.
> Armour seems to really work for me!


What a blessing! We all appreciate you keeping us updated on your progress!!!

I don't know why Armour is so controversial! I think it has to do with money.


----------



## webster2

yahoooo!!! I am so happy for you. I feel pretty good too. Amazing, isn't it?!?!? Now to let the medical community know they are closing the door to people feeling well. I think it comes down to $$ too, unfortunately..


----------



## HeidiBR

I actually do understand the controversy, and the don't think it is a "Big Pharma" conspiracy or anything like that. Synthroid has excellent marketing, starting with medical students. In medical school, not much time is spent on the thyroid. Synthroid is what they remember and feel comfortable with.

The other issue is that in the wrong hands, I actually think Armour could be dangerous. The amount of T3 if not titrated probably could really do a number on some patients.

I think the doctors are going with the most comfortable route, which in no way will get them sued. But I don't think it is all about money - rather, more about the known.


----------



## webster2

I agree that not much time is spent on the thyroid at all. The GP that Dxed me with graves, and suspected cancer told me that. He also told me he had to review his text books because he found it interesting that my case was falling in line with what he had learned.

I worked in a large animal vet practice. The drug companies actually gave the vets trips to Hawaii and other great locations based on the amount of product sold. I do think that drug companies play into how much synthroid is sold.

I didn't consider the harm Armour could do in the wrong hands though.

Anyway, I am a happy camper, and eternally grateful I found a provider that would prescribe it to me! I have just spent5 hours out and about..on the levothyroxine, i would not have been able to do that. I also would have been wiped out tomorrow...life is good!


----------



## Andros

webster2 said:


> I agree that not much time is spent on the thyroid at all. The GP that Dxed me with graves, and suspected cancer told me that. He also told me he had to review his text books because he found it interesting that my case was falling in line with what he had learned.
> 
> I worked in a large animal vet practice. The drug companies actually gave the vets trips to Hawaii and other great locations based on the amount of product sold. I do think that drug companies play into how much synthroid is sold.
> 
> I didn't consider the harm Armour could do in the wrong hands though.
> 
> Anyway, I am a happy camper, and eternally grateful I found a provider that would prescribe it to me! I have just spent5 hours out and about..on the levothyroxine, i would not have been able to do that. I also would have been wiped out tomorrow...life is good!


Anything in the wrong hands can cause harm. But, Armour is misused by body builders and such. There is a black market for T3.

Also, when a doc does not know how to Rx Armour; then the "chatter" goes around that Armour does not work.

A lot of possible scenarios; none of them good.


----------



## I DClaire

I have a question. What do you tell a doctor to get them to prescribe Amour? What are your specific symptoms or what gives you reason to believe Synthroid isn't doing everything you think it should?

I honestly feel better - *BUT* - I do not feel normal, I do not feel like myself. I can get up and do things, I'm slowly making my way through a mountain of responsibilities related to my family and Christmas - *BUT* - I'm not kidding when I say I absolutely do not feel normal..._I feel off, 100% of the time!_

I don't know if this is related to Synthroid - OR - something else is wrong and if so, it's scaring the heck out of me...I don't feel like me, I feel like I'm functional but don't have a brain.

I'm aware of it 24/7. Tonight we went caroling to a VA hospital and I walked and sang and did O.K. but I no more felt like myself than the man in the moon. I have a reasonable amount of energy but I can't get past always feeling halfway brain dead.

Is there any chance Amour would help me? I hate to try to talk to my doctor about something I know so little about but I'm getting a tad worried about my mental state. In some ways it is like the "thyroid fog" I used to feel but maybe worse. If I could somehow get past this, I think I'd be doing well but the problem isn't improving at all, it's getting worse.


----------



## Octavia

I would say this would be a pretty solid start:



I DClaire said:


> I honestly feel better - *BUT* - I do not feel normal, I do not feel like myself. I can get up and do things, I'm slowly making my way through a mountain of responsibilities related to my family and Christmas - *BUT* - I'm not kidding when I say I absolutely do not feel normal..._I feel off, 100% of the time!_
> 
> I don't know if this is related to Synthroid - OR - something else is wrong and if so, it's scaring the heck out of me...I don't feel like me, I feel like I'm functional but don't have a brain.
> 
> I'm aware of it 24/7. Tonight we went caroling to a VA hospital and I walked and sang and did O.K. but I no more felt like myself than the man in the moon. I have a reasonable amount of energy but I can't get past always feeling halfway brain dead.
> 
> Is there any chance Amour would help me?


...followed by: Could we give it a try to see if it helps? If not, what other options are there, because what we're doing currently isn't working for me. I want to be "me" again.


----------



## webster2

IDC, I am so sorry you are not feeling like yourself. The endo I was seeing would not even discuss anything but T4, even though the labs clearly stated i was not converting.

I now see a naturopath, and feel pretty good. One thing the NP told me was that since I am anemic and deficient in Vitamin D any thyroid replacement medication would not be absorbed well. So, in addition to the Armour, I am taking quite a few supplements.

One thing I noticed fairly soon after starting Armour was the brain fog has lifted! I am still exercise intolerant but that is one thing we are working on. So for now, I walk the doggie girl.

I hope you will feel like yourself soon.


----------



## Andros

I DClaire said:


> I have a question. What do you tell a doctor to get them to prescribe Amour? What are your specific symptoms or what gives you reason to believe Synthroid isn't doing everything you think it should?
> 
> I honestly feel better - *BUT* - I do not feel normal, I do not feel like myself. I can get up and do things, I'm slowly making my way through a mountain of responsibilities related to my family and Christmas - *BUT* - I'm not kidding when I say I absolutely do not feel normal..._I feel off, 100% of the time!_
> 
> I don't know if this is related to Synthroid - OR - something else is wrong and if so, it's scaring the heck out of me...I don't feel like me, I feel like I'm functional but don't have a brain.
> 
> I'm aware of it 24/7. Tonight we went caroling to a VA hospital and I walked and sang and did O.K. but I no more felt like myself than the man in the moon. I have a reasonable amount of energy but I can't get past always feeling halfway brain dead.
> 
> Is there any chance Amour would help me? I hate to try to talk to my doctor about something I know so little about but I'm getting a tad worried about my mental state. In some ways it is like the "thyroid fog" I used to feel but maybe worse. If I could somehow get past this, I think I'd be doing well but the problem isn't improving at all, it's getting worse.


If you can get a FREE T3 test and let us see the results and the range?

Here is info on Armour.......
http://www.frx.com/pi/armourthyroid_pi.pdf

And info on the FREES...........

Free T3 and Free T4 are the only accurate measurement of the actual active thyroid hormone levels in the body. This is the hormone that is actually free and exerting effect on the cells. These are the thyroid hormones that count.

http://www.drlam.com/articles/hypothyroidism.asp?page=2#diagnosis: standard laboratory test

Reading the above links would be most beneficial.


----------



## HeidiBR

I think you cannot convince a doctor to let you try Armour. Find a doctor or NP who prescribes it.


----------



## I DClaire

Thanks guys! I'll have labs next Thursday and see my endocrinologist the following Thursday. I called this morning to see if I could get in a little sooner but I couldn't.

I'm sitting here right now waiting for a call from Paul's cardiologist. We're probably going to the ER this morning - his A-Fib came back a week ago so basically his heart has been out of rhythm for over two weeks. We've done this on several occasions. One time the cardiologist practically scared Paul into normal heart rhythm telling him he was going to let me do the shock paddles! :jumping0047: My husband is hopelessly gullible! He falls for everything!

I'm starting out feeling tired this morning but it's probably so many unresolved problems - Paul is sick, Mother is sick, the dog is scratching his head off and our veterinarian can't find a reason and I'm lost in space.


----------



## Andros

I DClaire said:


> Thanks guys! I'll have labs next Thursday and see my endocrinologist the following Thursday. I called this morning to see if I could get in a little sooner but I couldn't.
> 
> I'm sitting here right now waiting for a call from Paul's cardiologist. We're probably going to the ER this morning - his A-Fib came back a week ago so basically his heart has been out of rhythm for over two weeks. We've done this on several occasions. One time the cardiologist practically scared Paul into normal heart rhythm telling him he was going to let me do the shock paddles! :jumping0047: My husband is hopelessly gullible! He falls for everything!
> 
> I'm starting out feeling tired this morning but it's probably so many unresolved problems - Paul is sick, Mother is sick, the dog is scratching his head off and our veterinarian can't find a reason and I'm lost in space.


Did you change dog foods, has the groomer (or you) changed shampoos you use on Jimbo? Any other changes around the house such as cleaning products?

Dry skin from running the furnace?

Hope hubby is alright; do let us know! You too!


----------



## NettyG

webster2 said:


> IDC, I am so sorry you are not feeling like yourself. The endo I was seeing would not even discuss anything but T4, even though the labs clearly stated i was not converting.
> 
> I now see a naturopath, and feel pretty good. One thing the NP told me was that since I am anemic and deficient in Vitamin D any thyroid replacement medication would not be absorbed well. So, in addition to the Armour, I am taking quite a few supplements.
> 
> One thing I noticed fairly soon after starting Armour was the brain fog has lifted! I am still exercise intolerant but that is one thing we are working on. So for now, I walk the doggie girl.
> 
> I hope you will feel like yourself soon.


Webster, what do you mean by "exercise intolerant"?


----------



## I DClaire

1. Cardiologist, still hoping Paul's heart will convert to normal rhythm on its own, scheduled the outpatient procedure for next Tuesday at 9:00 A.M. - the same day as my mother's 90th birthday with a family dinner that night. All I can hope for is that Paul doesn't get admitted and have to be hospitalized.

2. The veterinarian checked Jimbo from head to toe earlier this week and couldn't find any reason for the weird scratching. He found slight dental plaque (?) that will be taken care of in January but that was all. He told us to give Jimbo one Benedryl at night.

Today I wanted to take Jimbo back to the veterinarian but couldn't be in two places at the same time so when I got Paul back home, I took "Bo" to see a groomer. I thought maybe it was an anal gland problem but the groomer couldn't find anything either.

"Bo" will be fine for hours then abruptly all but go crazy scratching his feet, maybe his neck, maybe his chin, there's never any pattern to his outbursts but occasionally he'll actually whimper when he is feverishly scratching. He hasn't had a bath in a month, we haven't used anything new as far as cleaning or laundry products, I cook his food and that hasn't changed - the only "change" is colder weather but "Bo" seems to enjoy being outside a little more.

3. I crashed! Around 4:00 P.M., I sat down to catch my breath before walking Jimbo at 5:00 and I slept for two hours. I'm still groggy!

We didn't do anything today except spin our wheels...didn't accomplish a thing.


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## webster2

NettyG said:


> Webster, what do you mean by "exercise intolerant"?


I cannot exercise in a way that is strenuous or raises my heart rate. It wipes me out for days. My only exercise is walking my dog. Next up is a test to rule out adrenal fatigue.


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## webster2

IDC, could it be an allergy? One of Kris' pugs had an allergy to grass or something like that and he had to take an antihistamine. It only happened at certain times of the year, but he would itch himself raw. I hope your hubby will be ok too.


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## Gwen1

I DClaire;39420
I don't know what's happening and I'm so tired and frustrated said:


> IDClaire: I think something needs to be said here about the body adjusting
> to the thyroid medication. If I remember correctly, you were started on
> 125 mcg. of T4 soon after TT. You were on that 2 months and experiencing
> hyper symptoms. Then were reduced to 6 and 1/2 weekly. Then 6 for a
> week or 2 so far. 6 and 1/2 weekly equals an average of 116 mcg. daily and
> 6 weekly = 107 mcg. daily.
> 
> I am on a dose reduction after being overmedicated for 1 year. I am experiencing alot of the same symptoms you are. But my body has been
> on T4 medication for 16 years. I believe Sept. 2011 is when you first started
> thyroid meds. Anyway, I don't think the body likes changes in synthetic thyroid hormone levels/doses, and what we are feeling is the body reacting
> and eventually making adjustments. And I really appreciate your posts as it really is a strange feeling how the body reacts to this medication.
> 
> Maybe Andros can shed some light on a question I have.
> 
> Here's what I don't understand with Thyroidectomies: I have read on threads that alot of the TT patients will be started off on a full replacement dose of thyroid medication shortly after their surgery. Whereas people who are hypothyroid due to Hashimoto's will be started off on a low dose and titrated up until they are euthroid. The purpose of titrating is to let the body absorb and adjust to the medication, then level out to be increased again by increments of 12.5- 25 mcg. Why wouldn't the titration process be the same for TT patients? Because that is what I'm thinking IDClaire's problem has been?


----------



## Andros

Gwen1 said:


> IDClaire: I think something needs to be said here about the body adjusting
> to the thyroid medication. If I remember correctly, you were started on
> 125 mcg. of T4 soon after TT. You were on that 2 months and experiencing
> hyper symptoms. Then were reduced to 6 and 1/2 weekly. Then 6 for a
> week or 2 so far. 6 and 1/2 weekly equals an average of 116 mcg. daily and
> 6 weekly = 107 mcg. daily.
> 
> I am on a dose reduction after being overmedicated for 1 year. I am experiencing alot of the same symptoms you are. But my body has been
> on T4 medication for 16 years. I believe Sept. 2011 is when you first started
> thyroid meds. Anyway, I don't think the body likes changes in synthetic thyroid hormone levels/doses, and what we are feeling is the body reacting
> and eventually making adjustments. And I really appreciate your posts as it really is a strange feeling how the body reacts to this medication.
> 
> Maybe Andros can shed some light on a question I have.
> 
> Here's what I don't understand with Thyroidectomies: I have read on threads that alot of the TT patients will be started off on a full replacement dose of thyroid medication shortly after their surgery. Whereas people who are hypothyroid due to Hashimoto's will be started off on a low dose and titrated up until they are euthroid. The purpose of titrating is to let the body absorb and adjust to the medication, then level out to be increased again by increments of 12.5- 25 mcg. Why wouldn't the titration process be the same for TT patients? Because that is what I'm thinking IDClaire's problem has been?


If you have remaining thyroid tissue, it will put out hormone. So, a slower and more cautious titration is essential so the doctor and the patient can find the right place where the patient is euthyroid and feeling well.

When the patient does not have a thyroid, full replacement is essential. The only caveat here is that when using T3 such as Cytomel or Armour which is T3 and T4; one still has to exercise caution as T3 is the active hormone and none of us have the same level of activity therefore on size does not fit all.

And even though the above might or might not be true; nothing is carved in stone. That is why a good and caring doctor is so important during the titration process and even during the maintenance years.

Not sure my answer is a good one! LOL!


----------



## Gwen1

Yep, that clears it up for me. Thanks Andros!


----------



## McKenna

> The only caveat here is that when using T3 such as Cytomel or Armour which is T3 and T4; one still has to exercise caution as T3 is the active hormone and none of us have the same level of activity therefore on size does not fit all.


In my case, my endo did not start me on a "full" dose of Armour right after my TT. I titrated up from 15 mgs to 90 mgs over a few month's time.

Andros is right about it being so highly individualized as to how much we need and I also think individuality needs to be taken into consideration when looking at how our bodies handle thyroid meds. For me, I feel every increase or decrease of Armour, no matter how small. I don't know if it has to do with me flipping hyper and hypo so many times in the past and my body is super-sensitive.

I also think that for some people it can take a while not only to get a correct dose, but also to un-do the damage that too much/too little hormone levels have left in our bodies over the years. And in my case, uncovering or dealing with additional health issues comes into play. (pre-diabetes, insulin resistance)

It took me 6 or 7 months of titrating my Armour up after my TT to even START to feel better. For some of us, it takes time.


----------



## Andros

I DClaire said:


> 1. Cardiologist, still hoping Paul's heart will convert to normal rhythm on its own, scheduled the outpatient procedure for next Tuesday at 9:00 A.M. - the same day as my mother's 90th birthday with a family dinner that night. All I can hope for is that Paul doesn't get admitted and have to be hospitalized.
> 
> 2. The veterinarian checked Jimbo from head to toe earlier this week and couldn't find any reason for the weird scratching. He found slight dental plaque (?) that will be taken care of in January but that was all. He told us to give Jimbo one Benedryl at night.
> 
> Today I wanted to take Jimbo back to the veterinarian but couldn't be in two places at the same time so when I got Paul back home, I took "Bo" to see a groomer. I thought maybe it was an anal gland problem but the groomer couldn't find anything either.
> 
> "Bo" will be fine for hours then abruptly all but go crazy scratching his feet, maybe his neck, maybe his chin, there's never any pattern to his outbursts but occasionally he'll actually whimper when he is feverishly scratching. He hasn't had a bath in a month, we haven't used anything new as far as cleaning or laundry products, I cook his food and that hasn't changed - the only "change" is colder weather but "Bo" seems to enjoy being outside a little more.
> 
> 3. I crashed! Around 4:00 P.M., I sat down to catch my breath before walking Jimbo at 5:00 and I slept for two hours. I'm still groggy!
> 
> We didn't do anything today except spin our wheels...didn't accomplish a thing.


Climate change really affects "some" dogs as far as dermatitis is concerned. Here's hoping that is all it is. The Benadryl should help at night!

We "all" hope your husband will be okay and does not need to be admitted. Sending prayers, good thoughts and lots of good karma your way.


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## HeidiBR

I'd bet any money that Claire needs T3 in some form, whether it comes from Armour or Cytomel.


----------



## HeidiBR

Here's something I've noticed with Armour: I get really energetic after taking it at 7 am- then I take my second dose around 2 pm. When I go to bed at 10 PM I am ready to crash. It is clear that my body is not under the Armour influence at 10 PM.

Armour is powerful. For me so far, it is working like a charm.

I wonder if I am at a good dose? I am taking 60 mg twice a day.


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## I DClaire

I'll have labs tomorrow morning but won't know anything until the following Thursday. I absolutely do not feel well. I felt like a million bucks the first few weeks after my surgery but now I only feel tired.

We had a long day at the hospital yesterday but the cardioversion worked - Paul's heart is back in a normal rhythm. His chest and back are actually slightly burned (like sunburn) from the shock.

It's supposed to be raining tomorrow morning and turning colder. Where I used to always be burning-up, now I'm usually freezing and I'm not looking forward to going back to the hospital for labwork.


----------



## Andros

I DClaire said:


> I'll have labs tomorrow morning but won't know anything until the following Thursday. I absolutely do not feel well. I felt like a million bucks the first few weeks after my surgery but now I only feel tired.
> 
> We had a long day at the hospital yesterday but the cardioversion worked - Paul's heart is back in a normal rhythm. His chest and back are actually slightly burned (like sunburn) from the shock.
> 
> It's supposed to be raining tomorrow morning and turning colder. Where I used to always be burning-up, now I'm usually freezing and I'm not looking forward to going back to the hospital for labwork.


Glad to hear the good news about your hubby and good luck w/the labs!!

If you are cold all the time, you may not be converting T4 to T3 very well. Hope you got the FREE T3 and FREE T4 run!


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## I DClaire

We've had a long, hard day today - starting out with Paul going right back into A-Fib early this morning. I drove all the way across town in pouring down rain to have my labwork then raced home to take Paul to the cardiologist's office for tests.

I've been worried because he was put on Pradaxa several weeks ago - today he was put on a second high risk drug, Cordarone. The side effects are so dangerous that the accompanying literature says it should only be used by adults with life-threatening heartbeat problems. To say I'm upset would be an understatement.

I'm totally drained at the moment and probably not going to even try getting online for awhile. I don't feel well and I'm kinda' depressed about everything.


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## bigfoot

Ugh. Best wishes headed your way!

:hugs:


----------



## Andros

I DClaire said:


> We've had a long, hard day today - starting out with Paul going right back into A-Fib early this morning. I drove all the way across town in pouring down rain to have my labwork then raced home to take Paul to the cardiologist's office for tests.
> 
> I've been worried because he was put on Pradaxa several weeks ago - today he was put on a second high risk drug, Cordarone. The side effects are so dangerous that the accompanying literature says it should only be used by adults with life-threatening heartbeat problems. To say I'm upset would be an understatement.
> 
> I'm totally drained at the moment and probably not going to even try getting online for awhile. I don't feel well and I'm kinda' depressed about everything.


{{{{I DClaire & Paul}}}}


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## prettynikki5

Can I jump in? 

Boy have I been away for too long....really miss all these very important discussions.

I have also just started Armour. WOW. What a difference. It has been a little over a week or so since I made the switch from 175mcg Levothroid (Generic Synthroid) and 5mcg Cytomel after a year and a half. I have asked my Endo several times and he blew off the Armour. This last time I casually asked if there was a "Combined" pill so that I didn't have to take 2 pills every day...voila, he called in the Armour. 

Immediately I de-puffed, lol, I am peeing and pooping constantly-although I think I am a bit on the hyper side at the moment, but I too feel ALIVE again! I am dancing and singing again with my children, realizing how much of "Me" has been gone for so long.
It is sad actually, but I will not dwell...instead rejoice and I wanted to share my experience...I have been ill for all this time mainly b/c I wasn't getting the right medication I needed.

(((HUGS))) to all of you and Merry CHRISTmas!!!


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## HeidiBR

Excellent news! I am thinking of making a new thread as a diary for those who have switched to Armour to document experiences. That way, it is easy for folks to find info when they do a search.

Isn't it amazing how much better we feel on this stuff? How much are you taking and how many times per day? My doctor says to chew it to get the full absorption.


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## webster2

I really believe this medication is working for me too. I am glad both of you are having good results also!


----------



## prettynikki5

That is an excellent idea! Would REALLY be helpful to others.
I am on 2 grains, which may be a bit high to start with, so I will monitor for hyper stuff. But yes,the Happiness that has returned to my spirit is so wonderful  Best Christmas present ever! I really missed me


----------



## Andros

prettynikki5 said:


> That is an excellent idea! Would REALLY be helpful to others.
> I am on 2 grains, which may be a bit high to start with, so I will monitor for hyper stuff. But yes,the Happiness that has returned to my spirit is so wonderful  Best Christmas present ever! I really missed me


We "love" HAPPY SPIRITS around here!! Whoooooooooohoo!


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## HeidiBR

I am on 2 grains too. I agree - it is priceless to feel like me again. Actually, a better version of me 

Merry Christmas!


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## webster2

I can't wait to up my dosage.


----------



## HeidiBR

I think I might need just a bit more - maybe a half grain? All I know is that I feel ALIVE.

I actually got a period for the first time in 6 months. I never thought I'd be thrilled about that.

My body temp feels warmer. I have more energy. My mood is really high. I am actually losing a bit of weight, even though it is Christmas and all the eating that goes with it. Not a lot of weight - maybe 5 lbs since I started taking Armour 3 weeks ago.

I no longer binge on sugar-crap. My appetite is under control.

It does **** me off to think of the year and a half I wasted with the Synthroid. Lesson learned.


----------



## webster2

Heidi, glad you are feeling alive! I am feeling much better than when I took levo. I do have to apologize. I am taking Nature-throid. I must have misunderstood the ND. I was talking about armour, and she must have been talking about NDT in general when she said that was all she prescribed. It is waaay better than levo. Two weeks until blood woork and I can't wait.


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## HeidiBR

I am so happy for you and for me! I don't think it matters if it is NT or Armour; they both were reformulated in the last couple of years and they are the same. I think this is an amazing drug.

Now I need to take off the Christmas few pounds. I am trying eating Paleo to see what effect it has on me. I'm trying it for 30 days and we'll see.

I agree - waaaay better than synthetic.


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## webster2

Yup, I agree! My endo would not even entertain the possibility of trying it. It was tough to walk out of her office but I am so glad I did. Even though, I am not at an optimum does yet, I feel so much better, and am glad you do too!


----------



## Octavia

webster2 said:


> Yup, I agree! My endo would not even entertain the possibility of trying it. It was tough to walk out of her office but I am so glad I did. Even though, I am not at an optimum does yet, I feel so much better, and am glad you do too!


I'm curious...are you at all tempted to send her a note about why you left her, what you're taking now, and how well it's working for you? (That would be one of those letters I would think about writing for months, but never actually get around to writing.)


----------



## webster2

Octavia said:


> I'm curious...are you at all tempted to send her a note about why you left her, what you're taking now, and how well it's working for you? (That would be one of those letters I would think about writing for months, but never actually get around to writing.)


oh, yes! I have mentally composed it a million times. One of these times will sound like a mature rational person, and then I will send. I would love to think it might change her mind a bit, so i will be nice...and rational!


----------



## I DClaire

If anybody bet any money that my newfound energy with Armour wouldn't last, they're rich! I had either three or four profoundly wonderful days, then one where if I didn't know better I'd think I forgot to take my Armour, the next day I was hyper, now I've regressed terribly - today I am zonked!

I tried splitting my daily dose and only took 1/2 a tablet at 6:00 A.M. and I actually had a good morning but by noon I couldn't do anything and the second 1/2 of the tablet didn't do anything - I slept the entire afternoon.

I'm getting on my own nerves with all my complaining so I'm sure y'all are weary of it! I have so much I want to be doing and I feel like I've been sedated. The piggies are lettin' me down!








​I'm not as down as I was before getting to try Armour BECAUSE I've seen the light, I know what's possible - but I can't go running back to my doctor after one week!​


----------



## webster2

I DClaire said:


> If anybody bet any money that my newfound energy with Armour wouldn't last, they're rich! I had either three or four profoundly wonderful days, then one where if I didn't know better I'd think I forgot to take my Armour, the next day I was hyper, now I've regressed terribly - today I am zonked!
> 
> I tried splitting my daily dose and only took 1/2 a tablet at 6:00 A.M. and I actually had a good morning but by noon I couldn't do anything and the second 1/2 of the tablet didn't do anything - I slept the entire afternoon.
> 
> I'm getting on my own nerves with all my complaining so I'm sure y'all are weary of it! I have so much I want to be doing and I feel like I've been sedated. The piggies are lettin' me down!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​I'm not as down as I was before getting to try Armour BECAUSE I've seen the light, I know what's possible - but I can't go running back to my doctor after one week!​


I know what you mean. I am two weeks away form my next blood test. I am sure I need more pig power, and felt that way a short while after I started. You & I are on a really low dose. I think we'll get there, it will just take time.

I am enjoying being clear headed. Hang in there!


----------



## HeidiBR

I am not surprised Claire. The Synthroid effect is over and your dose is low. Maybe you can call your doctor and get it raised.

Have you had your adrenals tested?


----------



## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> I am not surprised Claire. The Synthroid effect is over and your dose is low. Maybe you can call your doctor and get it raised.
> 
> Have you had your adrenals tested?


Heidi,
Did you have your adrenals tested? If so, blood test or saliva?


----------



## Octavia

Octavia said:


> I'm curious...are you at all tempted to send her a note about why you left her, what you're taking now, and how well it's working for you? (That would be one of those letters I would think about writing for months, but never actually get around to writing.)


Yeah, that would be a good approach. I am thinking the same thing about writing a letter to my husband's doctor about my major disappointment in his recent/current care. You're right, it has to be rational as well as compelling enough to get their attention and "make them think" so to speak. Gotta find that delicate balance between showing respect for their skills and education, and helping them see that there might be a better way to think about certain things.


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## HeidiBR

No, not yet. I am going to ask at the appt next week. I really don't think I need it. My reverse T3 was higher than normal, so it will be interesting to see what she does with that.


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## HeidiBR

I am feeling very hypo the last two days. The only change is that I have stopped eating grains and sugar which naturally lowers my calorie consumption drastically.

I hate feeling hypo. Achy fingers and joints. Tired. Low mood. Witchy. Dry skin. Ug.


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## I DClaire

HeidiBR said:


> I am feeling very hypo the last two days. The only change is that I have stopped eating grains and sugar which naturally lowers my calorie consumption drastically.
> 
> I hate feeling hypo. Achy fingers and joints. Tired. Low mood. Witchy. Dry skin. Ug.


I feel much the same way, HeidiBR. I'm fixin' to go take a long, hopefully relaxing bath because I feel like every muscle in my body is stiff and aching. It's almost hot here (probably mid-60's) and I am so cold. I have on my pajama bottoms underneath heavy warm-up pants and a turtleneck underneath a sweatshirt and I'm still chilled. My husband said he was going to put on shorts this afternoon.

My mood is all over the place - generally I just feel tired and can't stay focused on anything.


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## webster2

I feel pretty good. I know I am hypo but...my head is so clear! I finally worked my first full day since July. My skin is very dry. My joints hurt. Constipation is an issue. I am having some surgery soon, and the ND & I have decided it will be better to wait his next step before increasing. I like the NDT over the synthetic stuff.


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## HeidiBR

I like it better too, but I don't know why I am feeling this way. Seriously hypo today. I'm glad for you Webster - may it continue!


----------



## I DClaire

I'm more convinced than ever that I'm becoming or have already become _thyroid _schizophrenic.  Most or a lot of the time I feel like I'm almost two different people - sometimes I feel relatively normal, I have enough energy to function, my mind will feel totally sharp...and then sometime later in the day or a day later I'll feel physically exhausted, _goofy-headed_ and really not well.

It's kinda' like the old lame joke about the floozie named Candy only in reverse. When Candy was good she was great but when she was bad she was better! :anim_63: When I feel good I feel wonderful but when I don't, I'm pretty much totally miserable. I don't have any in-between speed! And, we all know when mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!!

I will say that I have the slightest feeling that the good hours are lasting longer. Maybe I am stockpiling a little Armour in my body but I'm living for the day when these weird mood/energy fluctuations stabilize. Yesterday I felt awfully tired all day but had to keep pushing myself then when I finally got to bed last night I felt wired.

I keep thinking that for as strange as I feel, I still feel so much better than I used to feel and I'm determined to hang in there. Next week I'm actually going to re-join the YMCA and try to get back to a real exercise program. I LOATHE exercising for the pure sake of exercising but I've got to make myself do it and try to regain more strength and coordination. The Y-receptionist asked me if I'd be interested in Zumba lessons??? That woman, I hate to say it, may be in worse shape than I am if she thinks I could even consider Zumba! :anim_63:

I must share a funny thing my 43-year old daughter did. Denise is a health food/physical fitness devotee and always has been. At 43, she looks like she is maybe 35 and has boundless energy and is never sick.

Last week she got a flyer in the mail advertising a new yoga class at a gym closer to her house than the one she'd been going to so she gathered up her mat and whatever else she takes to yoga classes and off she went for a free introductory class.

When she got there the door to the room was closed but she opened it, walked inside and immediately realized it was yoga for senior citizens, some/most participants were sitting in chairs. Embarrassed but hoping not to look rude, she went on in, found a place and participated in the class.


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## HeidiBR

Claire - I think all this means that you will eventually need more Armour. And Zumba is a blast! I take it at the Y and I am terrible at it. But it is terrific! I wouldn't star with Zymba though -does your Y have aqua aerobics by any chance?

I had blood drawn last Thursday as part of my chin fat drug clinical trial. Every month I get a full panel drawn and it includes FT3, FT4 and TSH. Tomorrow I can pick up those results and take them to my NP. We'll see what she does with my dose. And with my high RT3.

The feeling hypo lasted two days. I don't feel hypo anymore. Although I wish I could feel the sheer euphoria I felt when I first started Armour.


----------



## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> Claire - I think all this means that you will eventually need more Armour. And Zumba is a blast! I take it at the Y and I am terrible at it. But it is terrific! I wouldn't star with Zymba though -does your Y have aqua aerobics by any chance?
> 
> I had blood drawn last Thursday as part of my chin fat drug clinical trial. Every month I get a full panel drawn and it includes FT3, FT4 and TSH. Tomorrow I can pick up those results and take them to my NP. We'll see what she does with my dose. And with my high RT3.
> 
> The feeling hypo lasted two days. I don't feel hypo anymore. Although I wish I could feel the sheer euphoria I felt when I first started Armour.


I still feel pretty good. I am having my gall bladder removed, so next blood work is pushed back a bit. Broke my wrist today, so things are a bit wierd but I like the NDT!


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## HeidiBR

Oh no! I am sorry to hear about the gallbladder and the wrist. How did you break your wrist?


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## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> Oh no! I am sorry to hear about the gallbladder and the wrist. How did you break your wrist?


Being extremely graceful...I tripped over the cord to my laptop. It could be worse


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## HeidiBR

Oh geez. Does it hurt? I hope not.

Just back from my chin study and the NP. The chin study coordinator wasn't available so I couldn't get my bloodwork. I did have the appointment with the Women's Health NP even though I didn't have my thyroid bloodwork. She went over my bloodwork she did last month. All of my sex hormones are dandy. My reverse T3 was high. The ratio of my RT3 and FT3 is .86 when it should be greater than 10. Therefore, on the Synthroid I wasn't converting optimally, even with the 5 mcg of Cytomel. When I started taking the Armour, I started getting the T3 my body needed. Until she sees my labs, she is going to keep me on the current dose of 60 mg twice a day of Armour. We might add in a small dose of Cytomel, too.

She also said it is normal to get that pleasant rush of well-being the first week or so of taking Armour; many of her patients report it, and she has also experienced it.

We also talked about going gluten free and Hashimoto's. I have been eating very low carbs the last week or so (and no grains) and I feel amazing.

All in all, a great appointment, and finding a medical practitioner that understands is worth gold. If anyone needs a medical practitioner in the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area, have I got one for you !


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## webster2

yup, it hurts a bit but I am tough, LOL!

Wow, how fortunate to find a provider that has experienced thyroid issues. You have hit the jack pot!

I went Gf, it is not so bad. It does help with a myriad of issues.


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## HeidiBR

Here is more proof that Synthroid was not working for me:

I have monthly bloodwork as part of a chin drug study. This includes TSH, FT3, and FT4 (ironic that the study sees the importance of these tests but not some endos? Hmmmm- that's another subject).

Anyway, before Armour, in September my med-fasting levels were:
TSH = 0.006 [0.350-5.5 uU/ml]
FT3 = 3.7 [2.3-4.2 pg/mL]
FT4 = 1.63 [0.61-1.76 ng/dL]

Not bad - everything looks great right?

In October, I forgot to fast and took my thyroid medication (Synthroid and generic Cytomel) two hours before the blood draw and the result were:

TSH = 0.010 [0.350-5.5 uU/ml]
FT3 = 4.0 [2.3-4.2 pg/mL]
FT4 = 1.53 [0.61-1.76 ng/dL]

My FT4 was actually LOWER after taking my meds. Not by much, and I am sure it isn't statistically significant, but shouldn't my levels be at their highest two hours after taking the meds?

We'll see what my new labs show when I get them. I am very curious.


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## webster2

From what little I under stand, they do look great! Doesn't it feel good to be among the living! I just did an exercise DVD, and I don't feel completely wiped out. It is long over due....haha library humor! NDT works for me!


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## HeidiBR

Just thought I'd check in (ha ha).

I posted this in the labs section but I'll post this here too.

These are my new labs since switching from .112 Synthroid to 60 mg of Armour twice daily:

TSH - 0.009
FT3 - 2.8 [range 2.3-4.2]
FT4 - .97 [don't have the range]

What the heck? I am really, really low! I think that is normal for FT4 when on Armour, but my T3 is pretty darn low.

You can see my last labs in my signature when I was on Synthroid.

Any thoughts? I was feeling really good until about a week before these labs.


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## lainey

This is from above:



> Here is more proof that Synthroid was not working for me:
> 
> I have monthly bloodwork as part of a chin drug study. This includes TSH, FT3, and FT4 (ironic that the study sees the importance of these tests but not some endos? Hmmmm- that's another subject).
> 
> Anyway, before Armour, in September my med-fasting levels were:
> TSH = 0.006 [0.350-5.5 uU/ml]
> FT3 = 3.7 [2.3-4.2 pg/mL]
> FT4 = 1.63 [0.61-1.76 ng/dL]


You tell me, what's the difference? The T3 is lower, even though physically you are taking more with the Armour than you were with the 5 mcg of cytomel.



> These are my new labs since switching from .112 Synthroid to 60 mg of Armour twice daily:
> 
> TSH - 0.009
> FT3 - 2.8 [range 2.3-4.2]
> FT4 - .97 [don't have the range]


The numbers don't say much. Your T4 is going to be lower because of the different T4/T3 ratio of the medication. Your FT3 was better on the cytomel, even though you were taking a third of what you are on now. What matters is how you think you feel on the Armour,


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Just thought I'd check in (ha ha).
> 
> I posted this in the labs section but I'll post this here too.
> 
> These are my new labs since switching from .112 Synthroid to 60 mg of Armour twice daily:
> 
> TSH - 0.009
> FT3 - 2.8 [range 2.3-4.2]
> FT4 - .97 [don't have the range]
> 
> What the heck? I am really, really low! I think that is normal for FT4 when on Armour, but my T3 is pretty darn low.
> 
> You can see my last labs in my signature when I was on Synthroid.
> 
> Any thoughts? I was feeling really good until about a week before these labs.


You are; it's all that Zumba!! Your doc needs to work w/you on this and raise your Armour by maybe 1/2 grain.

T3 is the active hormone and when one is physically active and we all should be, it just gets burned up..................fast!


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## HeidiBR

Thanks Lainey and Andros. The NP was waiting for these results as she was thinking of adding back the Cytomel; it looks like from these labs that she needs to do that, and maybe raise the Armour?

I think I am a junkie; I felt best on the 60 mg of Armour twice daily when I still had the Synthroid coursing through my veins, too. My theory? Ever since I quit smoking and my body was used to nicotine as a stimulant for 29 years, it sucks up any stimulant it can get.


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## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> Thanks Lainey and Andros. The NP was waiting for these results as she was thinking of adding back the Cytomel; it looks like from these labs that she needs to do that, and maybe raise the Armour?
> 
> I think I am a junkie; I felt best on the 60 mg of Armour twice daily when I still had the Synthroid coursing through my veins, too. My theory? Ever since I quit smoking and my body was used to nicotine as a stimulant for 29 years, it sucks up any stimulant it can get.


I hope you'll get the right mix soon. BTW, congrats on quitting smoking that's huge!

I will share my "ah ha" moment I had today. I am feeling really great right now. Since the surgery, it's been all about "me" feeling good getting used to living without the thyroid. I never gave any consideration to the "body" trying to get used to it. I'll be kind to the body for awhile, give it time to catch up! "We've " had quite a ride...these last two years.


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## lainey

Add cytomel to Armour? That's down right dangerous.

Yes, quitting smoking and losing the stimulation of nicotine is an issue.

LOL, you say junkie and I am reminded of a group of endo's who think that T3 medication is simply crack and should be banned. It does give you and instant boost, and circumvents the body's natural process. Just to play the devil's advocate. Your TSH is pretty well suppressed--at some point, you have to ask your self if your symptoms could actually be from that.


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## HeidiBR

Yes, I have asked myself that question. I am even considering taking myself off the meds to see how I feel. How stupid would that be at this point?

I am tired of dealing with this thyroid crap. I am whining now. Tired of it. I am fattened up like a a Christmas goose compared to my former lean self, my face is always puffy, I don't seem to metabolize at all - just fatten up. Good Lord.


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## lainey

Look. I have been at .05 and at 5.5, but most of the time, surprisingly, I hover right around 4 and do perfectly well. So, don't mind me if I don't agree that TSH HAS to be at a certain level, because my own experience is that I function normally over a pretty broad range--but I did have to let go of the idea that my TSH "should" be a certain value, and I am aware that normal people get tired, struggle with weight, have dry skin, etc. In fact, when you talk to people, it's almost abnormal NOT to have any of that.

People get frantic about the numbers, and always think that they need MORE, when sometimes the answer is less. It's not really that precise, IMHO, if your TSH varies hourly and daily on a normal natural basis, forcing your self to a suppressed TSH is not necessarily a natural or healthy state--people function well over a very broad range of values.


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## Gwen1

Re: I am switching to Armour

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Look. I have been at .05 and at 5.5, but most of the time, surprisingly, I hover right around 4 and do perfectly well. So, don't mind me if I don't agree that TSH HAS to be at a certain level, because my own experience is that I function normally over a pretty broad range--but I did have to let go of the idea that my TSH "should" be a certain value, and I am aware that normal people get tired, struggle with weight, have dry skin, etc. In fact, when you talk to people, it's almost abnormal NOT to have any of that.
> 
> People get frantic about the numbers, and always think that they need MORE, when sometimes the answer is less. It's not really that precise, IMHO, if your TSH varies hourly and daily on a normal natural basis, forcing your self to a suppressed TSH is not necessarily a natural or healthy state--people function well over a very broad range of values.


I agree with you, Lainey. Now my question is: Of what use ARE labs? What can we get out of our lab readings? -Gwen


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## lainey

> Now my question is: Of what use ARE labs? What can we get out of our lab readings? -Gwen


Guidelines. A frame of reference. A monitoring tool. The body's response is a feedback loop, and some fluctuations within a range are normal and expected.


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## Gwen1

Thank you, Lainey. That helps keep it in perspective.

Hope you don't mind another question: If I felt I was undermedicated for a period of 2 years, noted that my Free T4 was consistently below mid-range, say 1.2, could I conclude that 1.2 in the range is too low for me?

Seems like a dumb question, but that would be using labs as a frame of reference and guideline. -Gwen


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## HeidiBR

Lainey,

Look yourself. I don't know where you got the idea that I am TSH obsessed but I actually don't give a crap about what my TSH is at. I am concerned that my T3 is lower than when I was on Synthroid and a small dose of Cytomel. My T3 really hasn't changed all that much since I started replacement. I am actually starting to question being treated at all. I was subclinical to begin with and honestly, I don't know if I am doing all that much better on replacement than I was without it.

If I were TSH concerned, I would have done something about it a long time ago, don't you think, since my TSH is bottomed out? Give me some freaking credit for having a brain.


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## Octavia

HeidiBR said:


> I am actually starting to question being treated at all. I was subclinical to begin with and honestly, I don't know if I am doing all that much better on replacement than I was without it.


Heidi, what were your labs prior to starting on ANY thyroid meds? You may be right....maybe you only need a teeny, tiny bit of replacement. With your TSH being as low as it is, what I read is "too much replacement" in whatever form you're currently taking it. And hyper symptoms can look & feel similar to hypo, which could explain not feeling any better than when this all started for you. Plus, it appears that you have a whole bunch of physical changes happening all at once...no nicotine, increase in thyroid meds, weight loss effort, etc. Your body may not know which way is up, so to speak.


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## lainey

I did not ever imply you were TSH obsessed. You missed my point, because in my previous comment I also failed to include free T4 and T3 when I was referring to TSH, which people assess with their calculators, and determine that they need to be at certain points in the range--so I really meant, NUMBERS IN GENERAL. Having a goal or a target or an idea that any of them need to be in certain place in the range is a misnomer IMHO--ie, if you feel okay and your numbers are XYZ, they they are okay--they do not have to meet some particular target to be good, it is what is good for you--remember some of the dosing should always based on patient's reported symptoms, ambiguous as those may be.

My original assessment was that the numbers were not that different on Armour than they were on Synthroid/Cytomel, in spite of the extra T3 in the Armour.

I did look, and I did say (a couple of posts back), yes, your free T3 is lower on 2 grains of Armour, which has more T3 in it than the dose of cytomel you were taking. Maybe you really did need the extra T4 in the Synthroid/Cytomel combo to convert to T3. So, yes I agree it is probably doing not much for you at all--how much more T3 would you take to raise it? And add cytomel to this mix per the NP? Sorry, but I can't help but react to that as dangerous thinking, because such a combination puts your health at risk.

If you were subclinical in the first place, and don't feel better at those levels taking more of the medication that you are taking---umm, try less and see how you feel. At this point, as far as the comparative labs go, it is splitting hairs. That is what I was suggesting.


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## lainey

Gwen1 said:


> Thank you, Lainey. That helps keep it in perspective.
> 
> Hope you don't mind another question: If I felt I was undermedicated for a period of 2 years, noted that my Free T4 was consistently below mid-range, say 1.2, could I conclude that 1.2 in the range is too low for me?
> 
> Seems like a dumb question, but that would be using labs as a frame of reference and guideline. -Gwen


Research has shown that people taking thyroid replacement generally report best quality of life when the free T4 is measured above the normal population, when taking T4 medication only. That is generally above the midline.

Some people add T4 replacement until their levels are quite high in the range and don't find relief. At that point, many doctors may add a small amount of T3 medications.


----------



## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Thanks Lainey and Andros. The NP was waiting for these results as she was thinking of adding back the Cytomel; it looks like from these labs that she needs to do that, and maybe raise the Armour?
> 
> I think I am a junkie; I felt best on the 60 mg of Armour twice daily when I still had the Synthroid coursing through my veins, too. My theory? Ever since I quit smoking and my body was used to nicotine as a stimulant for 29 years, it sucks up any stimulant it can get.


That is a very dangerous idea. For one thing, they are not compatible and for another all she has to do is titrate your Armour upward for god's sakes.

I take 3 1/2 grains of Armour and as you know I am very very active. Walk, go to the gym, love to be outside gardening and "stuff"...............................


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## HeidiBR

Back in March 2010 my TSH was 3.42, Free T3 was 2.9 [2.0-44.], and Free T4 was 1.21 [.82-1.77]. TPO was 35 [1-35]. Vitamin D was 30.5 Symptoms included: weight gain, tiredness, cold all the time, blah blah blah. Weight was 146.4 (I am 5'7").

On 50 mcg of Synthroid I lost 10 lbs and my levels were:
TSH= 1.7
FT4= 1.2
FT3=2.6

Synthroid increased to .75 and weight went back up to 144:
TSH= 1.4
FT4= 1.3
FT3=2.6

Synthroid increased to .100 and weight at 145:
TSH=0.29
FT4= 1.3
FT3=2.7

Synthroid increased to .125 and weight up 10 lbs to 155. Husband sick with cancer and I was stressed out to the max:
TSH=0.01
FT4= 1.5
FT3=3.3

Synthroid decreased to .112 and weight at 160:
TSH=0.01
FT4= 1.8
FT3=3.0

Synthroid maintained at .112 and weight at 157. 5 mcg of Cytomel added:
TSH=0.01
FT4= 1.4
FT3=3.1

Now, on 60 mcg of Armour twice daily:
TSH= 0.01
FT4= 0.97
FT3=2.8

What the heck? I am so confused by all this.

Did I really need to be medicated in the first place?
Am I overmedicated?

This is so confusing.

The NP wanted to add a bit of Cytomel to clear out the RT3. Which is high.

I am so tempted to stop medicating. Or at least reduce.


----------



## lainey

You can gain weight when hyper, many do. Technically, you are.

Your original results, before medication were barely subclinical.

If you are not getting good results from the medication you are on, there is no reason not to see what happens if you discontinue it.

The cytomel for RT3 is for only a few weeks, and it is cytomel only, then stop all meds and retest. There is not a lot of good evidence that there is any such thing as "reverse T3 dominance", nor support in the literature for therapy in this manner.



> On 50 mcg of Synthroid I lost 10 lbs and my levels were:
> TSH= 1.7
> FT4= 1.2
> FT3=2.6


These are probably the levels that are best for you. Once again, chasing "target" levels for the frees can be ineffective.


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## HeidiBR

I think I will reduce my meds and see how I feel. It is a bit scary to do this.


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## Octavia

I agree with what Lainey is saying. I also don't understand the increases beyond 75 mcg...that doesn't make sense, given your lab results. You were borderline hyper at 100, and doc kept increasing you??? Wow...I am surprised.

As an analogy, all this treatment might be like trying to put out a match with a fire hose. Yeah, maybe there was a wee bit of a fire (subclinical), but the fire hose treatment was a bit much...too much of a good thing is, well, too much. I think Lainey is right on with thinking that your ideal dose is likely around 50 mcg, and I agree with your "gut feel" to reduce your meds, but I would advise talking with your doctor first to at least keep him or her informed.


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## HeidiBR

Wouldn't it be totally ironic if I were overmedicated all of this time? All this crap for nothing?

Since I get thyroid tests for free from the chin study, I can reduce the meds and then get tested at the beginning of February. I'll see how I feel.

Thank you all for helping with this. It is hard to come to this realization that I might not need the meds or as much of them.


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## HeidiBR

And ironically and probably totally unrelated, really weird cholesterol numbers:

LDL = 129 [0-130]
HDL= 97 [40-59]
Triglycerides = 49 [0-149]

Pulse = 60
BP = 107/60

General body temp = 97.7

A picture of health 

How could I be overmedicated and hyper with a pulse like that?


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## Octavia

Those are great BP and pulse numbers. My TSH is quite suppressed, and my pulse is abut the same as yours (with the exception of some recent crazy short-term episodes that prompted doc to reduce my dosage from 150 to 137 mcg). I feel good at my current TSH level, which was .003 last time it was checked. When I complained about hte pulse and palpitation episodes, the main number they looked at was my FT4, which was just barely under the top of the range where they like to keep it. They were hesitant to decrease my dose too much because overall I feel good, and my TSH needs to be suppressed (post-cancer).

Not totally sure where I'm going with this one, but just wanted to "back you up" - you can have a good pulse and BP even when potentially a little hyper.


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## lainey

Regarding BP and blood pressure it can go both ways. While the common scenario is that hyper makes both higher, that is not always the case just as people who are hypo can have high BP and heart rate.

What's the problem with your cholesterol numbers? The triglycerides are nice and low and the HDL is nice and high. The LDL is in a spot that is easily modified with diet and/or exercise, and even that is not "high" per se.

Body temperature is not an accurate indicator of thyroid status.

Trial reducing the meds. While it may be hard to imagine that you could feel better, you never know.


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## HeidiBR

Thanks for the back up! Honestly, I don't know how I could be hyper, except for the non-existent TSH. The FT3 and the FT4 are on the low end of the spectrum.

I plan to decrease my dose in a few days. I just got back from New York City - I walked and I walked and I walked miles everyday, in not great shoes, in the cold, so my legs are a bit achy. I want to wait for the aches to subside so in case I start aching from the med reduction, I'll know it is more likely to be related to the med reduction.

At my next appt in March I am going to ask to have my antibodies retested.


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## Andros

lainey said:


> You can gain weight when hyper, many do. Technically, you are.
> 
> Your original results, before medication were barely subclinical.
> 
> If you are not getting good results from the medication you are on, there is no reason not to see what happens if you discontinue it.
> 
> The cytomel for RT3 is for only a few weeks, and it is cytomel only, then stop all meds and retest. There is not a lot of good evidence that there is any such thing as "reverse T3 dominance", nor support in the literature for therapy in this manner.
> 
> These are probably the levels that are best for you. Once again, chasing "target" levels for the frees can be ineffective.


Lainey is correct.

Reverse T3

top

Major metabolite of T4; 40% of T4 is 5 deiodinated (by 5-deiodinase) peripherally to form reverse T3

No biologic activity

Half life is 4 hours (short)

Bound to thyroid binding globulin

Wilson's syndrome: questionable entity with no supporting publications (to my knowledge) of reverse T3 dominance causing hypothyroidism and low body temperature

Indications: not routinely measured; serum levels correlate with severity of hyperemesis gravidarum (Arch Gynecol Obstet 2000;264:57)

High levels: nonthyroidal illness (have reduced total serum T3), healthy newborns (J Clin Invest 1975;55:1137), hyperthyroidism, use of amiodarone, propranolol or estrogen, pregnancy (J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1977;44:660), fasting (Thyroid 1992;2:11)

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/chemistry.html#reverseT3

It may be interesting to get this test. Thyroid-binding globulin (TBG)

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/125764-overview#aw2aab6b3
(there are several pages so click on the bottom)

And, guess what? If the patient is receiving too much exogenous T3, it will revert to the biologically inactive rT3.

Something to ponder upon!


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## HeidiBR

On Monday I will reduce my Armour by half. I'll do that for a week.
The following Monday I will stop it for a week.

Do you think a week is long enough? I guess it will be if I can't get out of bed. Or, maybe I will feel terrific!


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## lainey

I don't think a week or two is long enough.

It takes about 10 days for the T3 to clear your system. It takes 4 to 6 weeks for the T4 to clear your system. You really won't be able to accurately determine your status with out blood work--there are always transitional symptoms going up or down that confuse things. With adjustments, it's always a "short term pain, long term gain" situation.

I would cut the dose in half (1 grain) and leave it there--that is closer in practice to the 50mcg of T4 that you were on--retest when you see your doc/NP in March (or 6 to 8 weeks) and compare your levels to how you feel then.


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## HeidiBR

I like the idea of cutting it in half and seeing what's what. Thank you.


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> I like the idea of cutting it in half and seeing what's what. Thank you.


I do also; keep us abreast! We don't need anything happening w/our Heidi!


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## paisleyheart08

Haven't been on here in months, but finally logged in today and saw this thread. I also see Sally Joseph! And while I know she's human, and therefore not perfect, I thank God for her. She is the only practitioner who has ever tried to help me and not sent me packing like I'm a mental case. She had me on a Cytomel/Synthroid combo, but when I asked about NDT she was very happy to switch me to Armour. It's only been a couple of days and I'm on 1 and 1/2 grains, but I'm hopeful this med will work for me.


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## HeidiBR

Paisley, I really like Sally, too.


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## HeidiBR

So... not a good idea to cut down on the Armour. Live and learn. I am now seriously experiencing major hypo symptoms: depressed, gained 5 lbs (water I imagine), face is all puffed up, tired and sleepy. I have a call into the NP.


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## lainey

Well of course you "can't" go off it.

Keep in mind that "natural" thyroid replacement has the effect of circumventing the body's natural processing of thyroid hormone.

Taking T3 suppresses T4, as it is the active hormone. Without exogenous T3, and with inadequate free T4 levels, then you have no stored T4 for your body to use to convert on its own. You would have to go through the traditional period of hypo symptoms while your stores of T4 build back up.

It is a lot like an "addiction". You're going to feel worse before you feel better. You have to stick it out to give your body a chance to right itself.


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## HeidiBR

I didn't go "off" it. I cut down on it. And I felt terrible. TERRIBLE. I wasn't functioning. I am not waiting it out. I am building up my T4 by taking some T4 (Synthroid) per the NP. We'll see where we go from there.


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## lainey

"Off" was an idiom. Semantics. Really.

Yes, there is something to the idea that all the extra T3 is a lot like crack cocaine.

How much T4 with how much Armour? You would still have to cut the dose of Armour to accommodate the T4 that Armour has in it.

Is this the same NP that suggested adding cytomel to the Armour?

Switch back to synthroid/cytomel or cut back on the Armour alone.

It is WRONG to combine other medications with Armour.

Combining Armour with other medications is, quite simply, playing with fire. In the end it is only you that will suffer more from it.


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## HeidiBR

Lainey -

Are you a medical professional? If you are not, I am not sure how you "know" with such assurance that something is "WRONG." And can tell me with such assurance to "
Switch back to synthroid/cytomel or cut back on the Armour alone."

I am taking 50 mcg of Synthroid and cut the Armour dose.

Honestly? I am starting to think this forum is a bit off the rails.


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## shellebean

That's the beauty of this forum. Many of us LOVE the input. It is based on experience and personal knowledge. Common sense says everyone is different. I think many on here have learned "the hard way" and I think it's great they want to help others. As I said, it's a forum...you can soak in what is said or you can ignore (at your own risk). If you ask for opinions, you're gonna get them.
Good luck.


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## Octavia

Heidi, I went back and reviewed a lot of the posts in this thread. From what I can tell, at the end of November, you weren't feeling well...then at the end of December/beginning of January, you felt great, then over the past few weeks, you have not felt well again. During that timeframe, you've added/switched/titrated a couple of different meds, if I'm understanding correctly. And you also are not 100% certain you actually have any thyroid issues...could be menopause or something else.

But what exactly are your symptoms? I'm assuming fatigue is the big one, and the weight gain. Any others? Have you had other testing done, unrelated to thyroid? (I'm guessing you have???) I have a very good friend who gained a lot of weight, was tired, etc., and she finally found her solution with a gastroenterologist. (She also had a hysterectomy. Now she is energetic as heck, and weighs probably around 125.) She now limits herself to certain kinds of foods, and avoids others. To be honest with you, I never asked her diagnosis, and she never volunteered the information, so I can't be much help there, but just wanted to mention the possibility of stomach/digestion-related problems. Grasping at straws, really, but I know you must feel like you are, too.

The thing that concerns me about your posts is all of the "experimentation" with the changes in thyroid meds in a relatively short time (2 months), without giving your body time to adjust and figure things out. I know it's frustrating to watch time go by when you feel like doo-doo, though, so I can understand your feeling of desperation to feel better. Just be careful.


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## HeidiBR

I agree, but what is with the medical advise? Bad stuff.


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## shellebean

Heidi, was your hashi's confirmed with FNA or just suspected based on TPO? Other thyroid issues like nodules? Sorry, I'm sure this has already been said in another thread, but want to know how you know for sure this is thyroid. Just curious.


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## HeidiBR

Thank you Octavia,

Yes, I have been tested for gluten, and other gastro-related stuff.

I was originally treated for thyroid based on my symptoms I had had for years, and my increasing TSH, my positive antibodies for Hashimoto's, and my strong family history (aunts, mother, brother, sister) of thyroid disease. Plus the symptoms of: weight gain, muscle aches, tiredness, brain fog, freezing cold, constipation - and many more. The symptoms were always there minimally, but after I quit smoking in 2008 they came roaring at me.

I switched in Armour in November. I felt great initially, but then had a decrease in well-being. My body just seems to suck up thyroid medication like it is water. When I was stressed to the max when my husband was sick in late 2010 and into 2011, it was like my thyroid medication (Synthroid) stopped working altogether. A small dose (5mcg) of Cytomel was added and it made a difference for about a week.

I felt best I had in years when I started the Armour in November 2011 and still had some T4/Synthroid in my system; I think Synthroid stays in your system for around a week. That week overlap I felt amazing - not all hyped up on T3, but just simply amazing. And then, over that month, a decrease until I crashed when In was in New York City over Martin Luther King weekend. I was doing a lot of walking in the freezing cold, and it just seems like the thyroid med stopped working. I told my NP that I did not want to add Cytomel to the Armour, as Cytomel gives me headaches. That, coupled with how great I felt with the Synthroid/Armour on board is why my NP suggested that I try the Synthroid/Armour combo. Which is not witch doctoring and is actually done by medical professionals, despite Lainey's reaction.

I am fed up with this thyroid crap being center in my life. Three years of my life have revolved around this stupidity. Thank you for your caring - I do appreciate it.


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## HeidiBR

shellebean said:


> Heidi, was your hashi's confirmed with FNA or just suspected based on TPO? Other thyroid issues like nodules? Sorry, I'm sure this has already been said in another thread, but want to know how you know for sure this is thyroid. Just curious.


Hi Shelle -

It was based on TPO. The endo said he felt nodules on my thyroid but an ultrasound showed a normal thyroid.

Would an FNA make sense - or some other test? What other tests could help?

I'd love to know why my body needs a stimulant like T3. Maybe it isn't related to Hashi's at all.


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## lainey

HeidiBR said:


> Lainey -
> 
> Are you a medical professional? If you are not, I am not sure how you "know" with such assurance that something is "WRONG." And can tell me with such assurance to "
> Switch back to synthroid/cytomel or cut back on the Armour alone."
> 
> I am taking 50 mcg of Synthroid and cut the Armour dose in half.
> 
> Honestly? I am starting to think this forum is a bit off the rails.


You were originally on 2 grains, cut it in half, but never stated which dose you were adding the T4 to. I don't agree with adding additional anything--T3 or t4--to Armour. Take it by itself or take something else. Either way, it's gamesmanship at this point.

I am not about telling people what they want to hear.

A nurse practitioner is no more a doctor than I am. If what someone is doing is something that I think, based on my anecdotal experience, dangerous, than I will say so. I have been around a lot of forums with posters that share treatment modalities from all over the world, and am only familiar with common practice. What you are doing is well outside that realm. I don't pretend to be anything more than a layman.

From here, that combination is so uncommon, that it looks like desperation. I personally don't believe that continuing to force your numbers to unhealthy levels is going to have positive results for you, but you are free to go ahead and try it and see if you think it works.


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## HeidiBR

50mcg of Synthroid and 90mg of Armour is what I am taking now, as of yesterday.

Formerly on 112mcg of Synthroid and 5 mcg of Cytomel - up until Nov 2011
(equal to: 112mcg of T4, 5mcg of T3)

Switched to 120 mg of Armour - Nov 2011
(equal to: 76mcg of T4, 18mcg of T3)

Switched to 50mcg of Synthroid and 90mcg of Armour) - Jan 2012
(equal to: 107mcg of T4, 12mcg of T3)

Show me medical proof that what I am doing is dangerous. Anecdotal experience from a forum is not proof.

So, really, all I have done is increase my T4 med equivalent from 76 to 107mcg, and decrease my T3 from 18mcg to 12.

This is very similar to the the Synthroid/Cytomel combo I was originally on.


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## lainey

The effectiveness of combination therapy of any kind is not well supported in the research. In some areas of the world, it is simply not available because, according to the research, it is deemed unnecessary.

Go into Pubmed and read up on studies of T4/T3 combination medication. Generally, they find that the patients do not end up improved measures of medical well being, such as lipid levels and cognitive tests, and instead have suppressed, and clinically hyperthyroid numbers. However, their perceived satisfaction with the treatment is higher if they have lost weight. There isn't a lot out there on quality of life issues and thyroid treatment because feelings are not really empirical, from a scientific standpoint. Doing a treatment because it makes someone think they feel better then finds some resistance in the medical community--because doctors should be doing what makes sense in good medical practice.

If I can look it up, you can go ahead and find support in clinical practice for this treatment to justify it to yourself. I am done with this.


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## HeidiBR

I didn't ask you to show me research on effectiveness of combo therapy. I asked you to give me some research to support your assertion that what I am doing is "wrong." Or dangerous as you stated.

We agree to disagree. Please kindly refrain from any further comments on this thread.


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## Brucergoldberg

i totally disagree with what is being said here. I will not go into a long dissertation but for every t4 only study you show me, there is a t4/t3 study out there that is just as supportive.

I just got my erfa thyroid today. Out of all the hormones i have been on, this one has been the best for me personally. I was on naturethroid, i seem better on erfa. I got a week of it for free and then mine came in today. Love it so far. I think you made the right decision.


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## Brucergoldberg

I just started to re-read this post and realized it was 17 pages long.

I want to say something and i may be off key here so if i am, just delete this.

If you are thinking of taking synthroid and armour at the same time its a horrible confusing idea. Your body will be ****ed and confused.

If you are taking synthroid, you can add cytomel
If you are taking NTH, you are already getting t4/t3 and you would need to adjust based on your labs.

SYnthroid works great for some people.
Armour works great for others.

There is no wrong answer with the decision of which one you use, as long as you do it properly.


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## I DClaire

HeidiBR said:


> I felt best I had in years when I started the Armour in November 2011 and still had some T4/Synthroid in my system; I think Synthroid stays in your system for around a week. That week overlap I felt amazing - not all hyped up on T3, but just simply amazing.
> 
> I am fed up with this thyroid crap being center in my life. Three years of my life have revolved around this stupidity. Thank you for your caring - I do appreciate it.


I experienced the e-x-a-c-t same feelings when I first went on Armour the end of December. I'd been on Synthroid for three months but it wasn't working so my endocrinologist prescribed Armour. The first 3-4 days after I started taking Armour were the best days I've had in years...then the magic abruptly ended. I have no doubt I had Synthroid in my system those 3-4 days but when it was gone, it was gone!

I've tried to hang in there - my endocrinologist wants me to stay on the starting dose of Armour for two months before being re-tested. I've been pretty discouraged until this week when I've very vaguely been thinking maybe things are improving. I think I'm afraid to let myself get too excited but I've had a good week for the most part.

One really dramatic change I'm noticing is I'm suddenly hungry all the time! Not good at all! I haven't had a tremendous appetite for months and really was fine with THAT but this constant craving to eat something is crazy! :confused0024:

I think I hit rock bottom last week. Like Heidi, I felt like I was losing myself in the quest to feel normal again. I felt like I was so self-absorbed in the pursuit of anything that could give me more energy and stamina. I've also been fighting all this for over three years and the frustration and depression really have been getting to me - BUT - then this week things have seemed better so maybe there's still hope. It's hard to be patient when you want so desperately to feel well and be able to enjoy life again.


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## Brucergoldberg

OMG claire!!! I had no idea. I thought you would of felt better on armour. I just started Erfa last week and reading your post is very discouraging. I only WISH i could take T4 only and maybe add in some cytomel but the side effects for me were unbearable. Damn keep us posted.


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## Andros

Brucergoldberg said:


> OMG claire!!! I had no idea. I thought you would of felt better on armour. I just started Erfa last week and reading your post is very discouraging. I only WISH i could take T4 only and maybe add in some cytomel but the side effects for me were unbearable. Damn keep us posted.


Nobody should be crashing and burning on Armour, Erfa mfg. re Thyroid® or any other thyroxine replacement. This is where a good doctor and timely labs enter in.

When titrating any thyroid replacement medicine, it is important to get TSH, FREE T4 and FREE T3 at least every 8 weeks until the patient achieves the euthyroid state. Thereafter, if the patient is stable and feels well, it is a good thing to get the FREE T3 once in a while unless there is a "clinically suspicious" reason to do it sooner.

And the patient must understand that it takes time for the body to acclimate. It took a long time to get sick and diagnosed so healing just does not happen over night!

Keep the faith, be consistent and get the proper labs in a timely manner!


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## HeidiBR

Bruce,

I already tried Synthroid and Cytomel.

"If you are thinking of taking synthroid and armour at the same time its a horrible confusing idea. Your body will be ****ed and confused."

Says who? Unless you are a medical professional and know what you are talking about, or have some research that shows that backs up your assertion, I am not paying any attention. I am going with what makes me feel better.

Thank you Andros and Claire. Andros, your constant inspiration is so uplifting. And Claire - I will let you know how I fare with this, since we seem to be experiencing the same thing.

I am not letting time take care of this. I have spent over three years on this BS and it is time to stop. Patience is in short supply on this.


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## Brucergoldberg

no one on this board is a medical professional. We are all voicing our opinions based on experience. You are free to do whatever you want.

if it works for you, more power to you. Hell i wish it would work for me.....


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## I DClaire

Brucergoldberg said:


> no one on this board is a medical professional. We are all voicing our opinions based on experience. You are free to do whatever you want.
> 
> if it works for you, more power to you. Hell i wish it would work for me.....


Word on the street has it that Brucergoldberg has hired a hitman to _take out his thyroid_ (if you know what I mean?!?!). :anim_08:

Seriously, I'll bet no single group of people on earth understand how complicated one health issue can be than thyroid sufferers. My personal quest for answers changed when I had surgery going from ways to manage the hyper symptoms to struggling to find hope that eventually I'd feel more energetic again.

Sometimes I think I'm one of those cursed people who cannot help noting everything that effects me one way or another. One good day (or good hour) and I think I'm cured! One bad day and I think it's all over! :ashamed0003: My 76-year old husband has terribly serious health problems and yet his easy-going personality ticks along like the steady to and fro swings of a clock's pendulum. My pendulum whacks back and forth slamming the clock's case!!

We, as an online community, represent a wide spectrum of ages and lifestyles and responsibilities and all but our common denominator is few of us feel as good as we believe we should feel and feeling well seems to escape us - we jump at everything that offers hope but the more times we reach out only to be disappointed the harder it becomes to find encouragement.

We're each going to hopefully find answers but I don't know when. I've personally talked to women who say they've spent their entire adult lives trying to manage thyroid issues that may have started when they were in their teens. Other people seem to take a thyroid hormone drug or supplement and never miss a beat. Some of us are painfully sensitive to symptoms others may never notice.

I do feel blessed to be a member of this site though. I truly believe I'm healthier and happier sharing my concerns than the way I was when I never had a sounding board. I only hope the negative comments I make don't feel toxic to others who are struggling with their own problems.

I'm not giving up. Right now, for as bad as my bad times usually seem, I have more good days than bad days. I've taken advice I've been given here and searched my soul for answers that have nothing to do with my thyroid. I'm more conscious of what circumstances seem to be in place when I feel the best..._and the worst. _

I don't know where we're going to end-up but I am glad we're together!! hugs3


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## Brucergoldberg

Haha....

Today i was at the gym and a buddy of mine said "do you have a good insurance policy for your family?" I said "yes when i get sick my wife took one out". He said "let me know if you want me to take you out, ill do it quick and painlessly"

LOL It actually sounds good......

Im going to give this 4 more months and then its coming out. Then I'm going to roll over it with my car about 5 times to teach it a lesson.


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## HeidiBR

This disease sucks. I've always said that Zeus or whoever could not have been crueler than to give me this particular one since my body image is already so warped. Nothing like having a disease that makes you gain weight when you are already paranoid about weight gain.

My mother was hypo and skinny as a rail.


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## I DClaire

HeidiBR said:


> This disease sucks. I've always said that Zeus or whoever could not have been crueler than to give me this particular one since my body image is already so warped. Nothing like having a disease that makes you gain weight when you are already paranoid about weight gain.
> 
> My mother was hypo and skinny as a rail.


For me, the greatest irony is that the world's #1 coward when it comes to anything involving blood or blood testing should come down with something that apparently requires so much blood testing. For a long time it was all I could do to walk from my car to the lab but I guess I'm mellowing - I usually march in relatively bravely.

I cannot stay in the same room with any IV. I had to have a baby needle when I had my nuclear stress test. My internist always uses a baby needle for me. I even fainted and fell when my veterinarian showed me a little vial of my dog's blood.

All this has certainly given me even more respect and admiration for people who have chronic health challenges their entire lives.


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## HeidiBR

I so hear you! My husband's one thing he cannot handle at all - dizziness or nausea. He takes Dramamine for a plane ride. He cannot ride in the backseat of a car. Or even sometimes as a passenger in the front. He gets nauseated smelling certain foods. And guess what? He had three rounds of some of the most grueling platinum-based chemo that exists. The kind that makes you vomit like there is no tomorrow.

The universe is cruel, but boy, does it teach.

Do you ask for the butterfly needle? Try that tapping exercise - it got me over my chronic fear of snakes. I kid you not.

http://eft.mercola.com/


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## Butterflyjkg

I am fairly new here and I don't know much at all about different meds. I have my thyroid removed back in October of '11 because of a tiny papillary nodule. I have been taking Levothyroxine and was switched to Levoxyl by my Endo on the first visit. I don't know if I like her or not. I told her I am having terrible hair loss and she said "that's not from the missing thyroid... take Vitamin D." OKAY... I already do, so...???

Well, my hair is still coming out in wads. Half of it is gone at least. I feel tired and generally lazy all the time. Does your hair fall out on Armour? I don't even know WHAT Armour is, really. I just want to feel okay and KEEP MY HAIR ON MY HEAD. I would rather feel crappy WITH hair , then feel great withOUT hair to be honest.

My doctor said my TSH reading are fine.. being .54 or something like that.... VERY LOW. She didn't mention any T3 or T4 and she didn't write me a script to have those done, either. I don't go back til April and frankly, I am NOT okay with my hair falling out. I posted about this in the Thyroid Cancer part on here too.

I am just wondering if you go bald on ANY meds or just synthetics or what?? Little help, please!!! Wait! Listen...sssshhhhh..... you hear that?? It's the sound of my HAIR FALLING OUT!!! :tongue0015:


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## peacesells560

Brucergoldberg said:


> Then I'm going to roll over it with my car about 5 times to teach it a lesson.


If mine ever has to come out, I'm going to introduce it to Mr. Walther, lol.


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## peacesells560

HeidiBR said:


> This disease sucks. I've always said that Zeus or whoever could not have been crueler than to give me this particular one since my body image is already so warped. Nothing like having a disease that makes you gain weight when you are already paranoid about weight gain.
> 
> My mother was hypo and skinny as a rail.


Hmm, I wonder if there is something genetic at play here, since my mom was also hypo and very thin. I always thought she had something else in addition to being hypo though.


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## artms

Butterflyjkg, if your doc won't order FT4 and FT3 go to a lab and get one on your own. It'll give you a better idea of what FT4 and FT3 you actually have circulating in your body. With my TSH .15 my FT4 and FT3 are still low yet the Dr I went to would say I'm hyper and reduce my dose. My hair falls out right away when I'm undermedicated and when I get enough it stops. That's one of the first indicators I usually have that I have enough FT4 and FT3. I'm sick of people being held hostage by these Drs who go only by Tsh. You can order your own labs online and don't need a Dr. It's cheap and worth it. There...that's my rant for the day.There a lot of good information here and a lot of support. You've come to a good place with lots of folks to help.


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## HeidiBR

My update:

I am doing very well on the Synthroid/Armour combo. I will have labs probably next week as part of my chin fat study and I'll see what the labs say. Frankly, I don't care what they say, since I feel great. No, I actually feel terrific. My body temp is 98 - for the first time in my life; it has always been in the 96's or low 97's.. I am eating very low carb and I have lost 6 pounds. This is a big deal because for a year I could not lose anything. Hopefully this feeling great will continue. I'll keep you all posted!


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## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> My update:
> 
> I am doing very well on the Synthroid/Armour combo. I will have labs probably next week as part of my chin fat study and I'll see what the labs say. Frankly, I don't care what they say, since I feel great. No, I actually feel terrific. My body temp is 98 - for the first time in my life; it has always been in the 96's or low 97's.. I am eating very low carb and I have lost 6 pounds. This is a big deal because for a year I could not lose anything. Hopefully this feeling great will continue. I'll keep you all posted!


Sounds like you have found the right mix for your body! Congrats! I am enjoying close to normal body temps in for the first time in years, it amazes me.


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## HeidiBR

It is really amazing, isn't it? At least I have found the right mix for this week 
Now if this weight loss continues, I'll be happy!


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## HeidiBR

Update this week:
On the 50 of Synthroid and 1.5 grains of Armour and the difference is night and day. I had some lab work the other day for my chin study. Because of a scheduling snafu I ended up having blood work 4 hours after I had taken the 50 Synthroid and one grain of Armour. I thought my values would be whacked out, but they were:

TSH = 0.011
FT3 = 4.3 [2.3-4.2]
FT4 = 1.62 [0.61-1.76]

I take the other 1/2 grain of Armour in the afternoon.

I feel really good. I feel like my old self.
No heart palps or other hyper symptoms.
I have lost 8 lbs eating low carb. 12 more to go! This is the first time in a year that the weight has come off.


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## Octavia

That's a great update, Heidi!


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## webster2

HeidiBR said:


> Update this week:
> On the 50 of Synthroid and 1.5 grains of Armour and the difference is night and day. I had some lab work the other day for my chin study. Because of a scheduling snafu I ended up having blood work 4 hours after I had taken the 50 Synthroid and one grain of Armour. I thought my values would be whacked out, but they were:
> 
> TSH = 0.011
> FT3 = 4.3 [2.3-4.2]
> FT4 = 1.62 [0.61-1.76]
> 
> I take the other 1/2 grain of Armour in the afternoon.
> 
> I feel really good. I feel like my old self.
> No heart palps or other hyper symptoms.
> I have lost 8 lbs eating low carb. 12 more to go! This is the first time in a year that the weight has come off.


I am really happy for you! Too many people never find the right meds, and go through the motions but not really being engaged in life. Congrats on the weight loss too!


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## lainey

> I thought my values would be whacked out, but they were:
> 
> TSH = 0.011
> FT3 = 4.3 [2.3-4.2]
> FT4 = 1.62 [0.61-1.76]
> 
> I take the other 1/2 grain of Armour in the afternoon.


Clinically hyper, but happy losing weight. Good for you.


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## HeidiBR

Clinically hyper by .1 on the FT3 ONLY after being tested after taking my meds. My endo and my NP do not give a hoot about TSH once a patient is on replacement med.
Next month hopefully my appt won't get screwed up and I'll have fasting bloodwork. Which I am sure will not show clinically hyper by .1.


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## HeidiBR

Thank you Webster, Octavia and Lainey (I think).


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## lainey

> Next month hopefully my appt won't get screwed up and I'll have fasting bloodwork. Which I am sure will not show clinically hyper by .1.


Unless you are not taking your medication most of the time, lab results are most accurate when you are taking it.

Fasting medication before blood work is a technique used by patients wishing to intentionally alter their lab results. This is motivated by their knowledge that the hyperthyroid state is unhealthy and potentially dangerous, and their fear that their medical professional may lower their dose based on such results.

You are taking extra T4 medication. This will tend to keep your T3 higher and more stable than if you were taking Armour alone.

BTW, the rapid weight loss is a symptom.


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Update this week:
> On the 50 of Synthroid and 1.5 grains of Armour and the difference is night and day. I had some lab work the other day for my chin study. Because of a scheduling snafu I ended up having blood work 4 hours after I had taken the 50 Synthroid and one grain of Armour. I thought my values would be whacked out, but they were:
> 
> TSH = 0.011
> FT3 = 4.3 [2.3-4.2]
> FT4 = 1.62 [0.61-1.76]
> 
> I take the other 1/2 grain of Armour in the afternoon.
> 
> I feel really good. I feel like my old self.
> No heart palps or other hyper symptoms.
> I have lost 8 lbs eating low carb. 12 more to go! This is the first time in a year that the weight has come off.


What truly wondeful news! Stay the course; it has been a long time coming!


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## HeidiBR

Thank you Andros.

Lainey, I cannot tell if you are trying to be helpful or just a snarky witch so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

"Fasting medication before blood work is a technique used by patients wishing to intentionally alter their lab results. This is motivated by their knowledge that the hyperthyroid state is unhealthy and potentially dangerous, and their fear that their medical professional may lower their dose based on such results."

Really? My conservative Board Certified endo had me fast from meds for thyroid blood work. As does my NP. Even my nincompoop GP made me fast for thyroid meds. So I would say that you are being snarky here. Or acting like Ms. Junior Doctor. I am not seeking to get more med. I am not seeking to be hyper or skew results. I am not self-medicating.

As for the weight loss, it started before I changed my meds and added the Synthroid. I do not think that that 8 lbs of weight loss since January 10 is excessive, rapid or fueled by being hyper. Two pounds per week on average (less actually since I lost 4 the first week that was surely water weight.) I eat very low carb, no junk, grains or sugar at all. My pulse is 60. My BP 100/70. I take Zumba three times a week, strength train twice, swim laps or water jog 3 times a week, and spin once.

You seem to be convinced I am hyper based on non-fasting blood tests.

I will continue to do as my endo and NP say. It is working for me.


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## lainey

There are a lot of people who come to this forum and many others and say that their doctors are wrong for what ever the reasons--that they should be treated, that doctors don't know how to treat them because they won't give them medication, won't give them enough medication to help them solve whatever symptoms they have to make them feel better--the list goes on and on.

Some patients order their own labs, they buy medication on the internet, they shop and shop around for a physician that will do unconventional treatment, tell them what they want to hear or prescribe what they want to take. After all, it pays to keep the customer happy and if you look, you will find it.

Then, these people hold them up against the other "bad" doctors in their past and say that these doctors are right.

Michael Jackson got a doctor to give him Propofol to help him sleep, and now he's sleeping forever. A doctor gave a man in NY a prescriptions for thousands of narcotic pills--which apparently weren't enough because he shot 6 people dead in a pharmacy while trying to steal more.

After all you should treat the patient until it makes them feel good.

Because a doctor helps you to medicate yourself to hyper levels does not mean that I should agree with it, nor that I should humor you by validating it nor fail to question it for fear of damaging your sensibilities.

It is unfortunate that you don't see it as anything other my interest in your retaining good health.


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## HeidiBR

lainey said:


> Because a doctor helps you to medicate yourself to hyper levels does not mean that I should agree with it, nor that I should humor you by validating it nor fail to question it for fear of damaging your sensibilities.
> 
> It is unfortunate that you don't see it as anything other my interest in your retaining good health.


I will be civil here and simply tell you that you are obnoxious, rude, and a know it all. I don't need or appreciate your diagnosis of what you see as my physician's malpractice. I don't care if you agree with my board-certified endo. Neither do you since you clearly think you know more than my physicians and NP.

I will ask you again to please refrain from commenting on my thread. I do not care what you believe or what you think you know. You know nothing about my situation other than the bits I have posted here. You are unqualified to diagnosis me, or anyone else.

In a not so nice way: stay off my thread. I don't care what you think.


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## Andros

I sure hope I don't have to close this thread. Name calling "is" hitting below the belt and quite infantile.

As the Moderator in charge, I have made allowances but there will be no more allowances. Push and I will shove.

One of the rules of the board is no flaming.


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## northernlite

Heidi -

Let it go, when we post on a public message board we are inviting comments from a people with a variety of opinions and backgrounds. Sort through the responses and accept what is meaningful to you and ignore what is not.

A board such as this is valuable because there are a variety of opinions and they can make us look at things in a manner that we might not have thought of ourselves.

Lainey is correct, you are currently medicated slightly hyper. And that might be a wonderful place for you. Of my two Hashi brother's, one feels fanastic at a TSH of 0.04 on T4 only and lousy at the next dose down of T4 which gives him a TSH of 1.56. He is clinically medicated slightly hyper but he has no hyper symptoms and it is the right place for him. At 1.56 he is "just right" but has hypo symptoms.

I am enjoying your discussion of the use of T4 with the Armour. It is very unique and by sharing it you might give someone that is really struggling an option that was never thought of before. I personally love the science of things and am mulling it over in my brain how and why that might be working for you. By sharing your story and your numbers and the info on how you feel we are all learning.

Like Lainey, I tend to be a very direct and opinionated person. I too have fired up at least one member on this board in the past. But I tend to call them as I see them, doesn't make me always right but I certainly like to think I am!!!!


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## HeidiBR

Please close the thread Andros.

I don't appreciate it being intimated that I am self-medicating or manipulating my doctors. If that is OK then I want no further part of this forum. It is not OK in my book to do that either and that is below the belt.

Please close the thread. And please delete this thread.

Please tell me how to delete my screen name and membership and remove all of my posts.

Thank you.


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## Andros

HeidiBR said:


> Please close the thread Andros.
> 
> I don't appreciate it being intimated that I am self-medicating or manipulating my doctors. If that is OK then I want no further part of this forum. It is not OK in my book to do that either and that is below the belt.
> 
> Please close the thread. And please delete this thread.
> 
> Please tell me how to delete my screen name and membership and remove all of my posts.
> 
> Thank you.


I have it well in hand. Mind you, I do this with great regret. I and others here have been very very nice to you; especially when your husband was so sick.


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## CA-Lynn

Lainey,

I just want to say that I thought your post was in line with my feelings about the matter.


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