# back from mayo..lab results



## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

no details, just for those wo were watching my old thread (which I can't find). Bottom line is that they tested me for everything under the sun for 6 days. I have some anemia things going on but they are not too bad. Those numbers are actually coming up. Burning and irritation is directly a result of being given Cymbalta in a very hypothyroid state and then taking it away. Screwed my brain chemestry up and there is not time table on how long it will take to right itself. Seems that once pathways are formed that it is hard to re-route things. It is so obvious to me that only thos with expertise in these drugs should be prescribing them...my former Dr. prescribed Cymbalta like candy and she has learned from me. Oh well, let the anger go....

And no, I do not have any sign of cancer and all of the other things that folks hear were so worried about. They had seen antibodies higher than mine before...although they did say mine were waaaaaaaaay up there when first discovered. Anyway, the Psychiatrist there and the one I am now seeing here now (had to becuase of the cymbalta issue) both said that giving SNRI's to a thyroid patient who is not in a good place is very tricky. They also said that once my thyroid levels get stable and stay there for some time, this thing should dissapate (although may take a long time). Until then, I have to live with it and am taking a low dose of doxipen which seems to help some with sleep. I am also working on other things to help me cope and not "hyperfocus" on my damn physical condition. Has made a huge difference. I have also learned a ton about how Hashis affexts your CBC, etc... but all my numbers are coming back up and look pretty good. They were down for a while but n the comback. By the way, I highly recommend eating clean ang gluten free because I think that has helped my numbers(but that is my own theary). the thought I may have celiacs (that was a guess) but could not test for it becuae I had not eaten gluten in 6 months....I believe gluten should be out of every hashi diet.

All of us should be very wary of meds. I have never had trouble with meds in my life but now my brain seems to be super sensitive. Long story and no need to go into it here, but other drugs have affected me differently. Psych says that I should do everything I can to stay away from meds for now. OK, now on to the matter at hand.

I was on armour 75mg for about 3 weeks and moved up to 90mg for 3 weeks. That was the time I went to Mayo...the tests there showed

Aug 10th
TSH 5.4
t3 3.3 (2.0-3.5) not sure if free or not
Free T4 .7 (.6-1.6)

so they upped it from 90 to 105

Aug 29
TSH .80
Free T3 4.8 (2.0-4.4)
Free T4 1.13 (.82-1.77)

so looks like the Free T3 is high but Free T4 is in the middle. This did not alarm my Endo and I feel pretty dog gone good despite having a couple nights where I did not sleep well. We are testing again on September 19th becaue my TSH seemed to have come a long way very quickly and he wants to keep a close eye. I do hope it is leveling out and not still coming down. My body seems to adjust to doses very quickly (same with synthroid). My endo does not want to go back to synthroid since I am feeling pretty good on armour.

I am going to be very interested in what the tests will show in a couple weeks. I will stay with this dose if at all possible unless I speed up too much.

Question.. what do those of you who take armour think about these results (if you have been at a similar place).

And another question (for Andros especially).. Do you find that excersize affects how you sleep. The two nights that I have not slept well (could not sleep), I did not excersize that day. That is the only thing I can see different. Thanks for all the concern and I hope ya'll will help me with this armour thing.

If I can be of help with diet to anyone, let me know. I am a believer in my naturopath 100% and diet is HUGE. No question about it.


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

duh...I just read that you should not get tested after taking the armour right away becuae free t3 will show high. I feel a little better now (ha ha0. So, Andros, how lng should I wait after I take it to get tested next time? I usually take it about 730 in the morning. Should I wait until after lunch? the last time, I think I went about 10 in the morning. Thanks, Mark


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

markwillplay said:


> no details, just for those wo were watching my old thread (which I can't find). Bottom line is that they tested me for everything under the sun for 6 days. I have some anemia things going on but they are not too bad. Those numbers are actually coming up. Burning and irritation is directly a result of being given Cymbalta in a very hypothyroid state and then taking it away. Screwed my brain chemestry up and there is not time table on how long it will take to right itself. Seems that once pathways are formed that it is hard to re-route things. It is so obvious to me that only thos with expertise in these drugs should be prescribing them...my former Dr. prescribed Cymbalta like candy and she has learned from me. Oh well, let the anger go....
> 
> And no, I do not have any sign of cancer and all of the other things that folks hear were so worried about. They had seen antibodies higher than mine before...although they did say mine were waaaaaaaaay up there when first discovered. Anyway, the Psychiatrist there and the one I am now seeing here now (had to becuase of the cymbalta issue) both said that giving SNRI's to a thyroid patient who is not in a good place is very tricky. They also said that once my thyroid levels get stable and stay there for some time, this thing should dissapate (although may take a long time). Until then, I have to live with it and am taking a low dose of doxipen which seems to help some with sleep. I am also working on other things to help me cope and not "hyperfocus" on my damn physical condition. Has made a huge difference. I have also learned a ton about how Hashis affexts your CBC, etc... but all my numbers are coming back up and look pretty good. They were down for a while but n the comback. By the way, I highly recommend eating clean ang gluten free because I think that has helped my numbers(but that is my own theary). the thought I may have celiacs (that was a guess) but could not test for it becuae I had not eaten gluten in 6 months....I believe gluten should be out of every hashi diet.
> 
> ...


Good for you on those Aug. 29 numbers!! Whoooooooooooooooooohoo!!! You have a good endo too!

Oh, you bettcha. I do make sure I do not exercise in the evening though as that will keep me awake. But if I exercise (and I sure do) in the mornings or early afternoons, I sleep very well.

And that's the thing when taking any form of T3. You "must" be consistent w/your exercise so that the T3 does not build up. Your Armour is being titrated to what you "always" do so make sure you stay on track w/this.

I exercise 7 days a week and have a lot of diversity in my regimen. I love to exercise! It triggers the endorphins and makes me feel really really good.


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## javynliz (Aug 27, 2012)

Hi!  I am curious to know how Hashi's affects your CBC?

Elisabeth


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## Adelaide (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm curious about what the Cymbalta did to you? It's an anti-depressant? Geez... I'm thinking about all the people who are given anti-depressants because of their low thyroid...


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## webster2 (May 19, 2011)

Your story is scary. I think Cymbalta is prescribed heavily here where I live. There are ads on TV promoting it.

I exercise the heaviest in the morning, and do little things in the afternoons. I usually do not have trouble sleeping.

On the day of my blood draw, I wait until after to take my Nature-throid. So, I am at the lab at 6 a.m.!


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

I've said over and over and over and over again.....NEVER TAKE ANTI-DEPRESSANT OR NEUROTROPIC DRUGS UNLESS PRESCRIBED BY A PSYCHIATRIST.

Anyone who gets these drugs, such as Cymbalta, from a medical practitioner OTHER THAN a psychiatrist......well, the best way to describe it.......it's like having Fred Flintstone design a space ship.

These drugs are not M&M's. They rearrange brain chemistry.

If you learn anything from this website, please learn this.


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

hemo said that auto immune patients tend to have lower blood count when things are flared up. All my numbers are coming back up. I am taking B12 shots as well as my b 12 was on the low side with supplamentation.

As for the Cymbalta, it has screwed my brain chemestry and I am extremely angry that it has stolen over 6 months of my life and no end in sight. It is not as bad as it has been, but I think other drugs affect me differently now. I had rebound form xanax after only taking one .5 pill at night for 8 days. I am just highly sensitive to meds, pure and simple. I never was really before this incident. My Dr. prescribed the stuff like candy for pain, IBS (wow) and all sorts of other things. This has been an absolute nightmare and I am doing everything I can to learn from it and grow emotionally and spiritually. I can't really tell you what systeming burning and irritation is like but I can say that I was on the edge of not wanting to be here. Alas, I am hopeful it will pass now and if it does not, I will be able to live with it not being as bad. Unbelievable.


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## Adelaide (Jul 19, 2012)

CA-Lynn said:


> I've said over and over and over and over again.....NEVER TAKE ANTI-DEPRESSANT OR NEUROTROPIC DRUGS UNLESS PRESCRIBED BY A PSYCHIATRIST.
> 
> Anyone who gets these drugs, such as Cymbalta, from a medical practitioner OTHER THAN a psychiatrist......well, the best way to describe it.......it's like having Fred Flintstone design a space ship.
> 
> ...


Amen! There's a documentary on youtube called "marketing madness" or "the marketing of madness". When I watched that I horrified! Then I watched this Fifth Estate documentary on Oxycontin. These drug companies are out of control. I'm actually at a point where I think I won't take any drug unless its been on the market for at least 10 years. When you make billions of dollars on drug sales and then have to pay maybe only a million out in lawsuits, then they seem to feel free to throw the stuff out into the market with the general population as guinea pigs. Where are the regulators??? Jesus. It makes me furious.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

Guess what......some ob/gyn's are prescribing Cymbalta for menopause patients.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

markwillplay said:


> duh...I just read that you should not get tested after taking the armour right away becuae free t3 will show high. I feel a little better now (ha ha0. So, Andros, how lng should I wait after I take it to get tested next time? I usually take it about 730 in the morning. Should I wait until after lunch? the last time, I think I went about 10 in the morning. Thanks, Mark


That's what I do and that was the biggest noticable difference in the new filler. It absorbs faster.

Liothyronine (T3)
is almost totally absorbed, 95 percent in 4 hours.
http://www.frx.com/pi/armourthyroid_pi.pdf

I lab at 9 AM and take after I walk out. I normally take my Armour at 5 AM and have done so for years. And shall continue to do so except now, not on the day of labs.

One time was all it took. LOL!! T3 was like 700.................now that was different lab and I forget what the range was but rest assured, it was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the top.

However,my doc was not worried. She could see that I did not present clinically as hyperthyoid. Whew!


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

CA-Lynn said:


> I've said over and over and over and over again.....NEVER TAKE ANTI-DEPRESSANT OR NEUROTROPIC DRUGS UNLESS PRESCRIBED BY A PSYCHIATRIST.
> 
> Anyone who gets these drugs, such as Cymbalta, from a medical practitioner OTHER THAN a psychiatrist......well, the best way to describe it.......it's like having Fred Flintstone design a space ship.
> 
> ...


Could you repeat that please? LOL!!

Folks, listen to this advice! It may save your life!


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

I am the poster child now unfortunately.

Look, I actually know people who have done quite well on Cymbalta. I think it can be great for some people. But I am also getting cognitive Behavioral therapy and that has done me a WORLD of good. I used to that that was poopoo...not now. It has changed my life and outlook. I believe these drugs can help people that NEED them. But I honestly do not think as many people NEED them as take them. And I KNOW that they are very tricky for someone with thyroid levels that are not rock solid... they just are.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

Mark there is no doubt that these drugs work.......*when prescribed and monitored by a psychiatrist*. Adjunct psych therapy is essential in cases where there is behavioral dysfunction. [Psychotropic drugs by themselves will NOT "cure" behavioral problems. They only "settle" the patient so that talk therapy can begin.]


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

that is just it, I do not have behavioral issues. I am getting Behavior therapy to try to cope with this calamity. My skin still burns and I feel like I have electrical current runing thourgh my body 24/7. If I stop and just pay attention to it (which I try never to do) I can feel it, even when I am feeling pretty good. I knmow they work, I have many friends who have tekan them. I am just a rare cxase, but my Psych clearly stated that those with thyroid issues were more suscepatable to negative side effects and brutal withdrawal.

I pray it will pass, but it is very difficult to deal with, I promise you that.


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

newest lab results. I went in at 4 in afternoon this time.

TSH .29
Free T3 3.7 (2.0-4.4)
Free T4 .94 (.82-1.77)

Free T4 has steadily dropped since I have been on armour. that TSH is low but I don't feel hyper. I am more irritable but I am on other meds that are probably having an impact there. What do you think of these lab results.

keep in mind, TSH was 5.4 6 weeks ago, .8 3 weeks ago and now 2.9. Looks like it is stabalizing to me.

Armour takers, what do you think of these numbers and why FFree T4 so low?


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

markwillplay said:


> no details, just for those wo were watching my old thread (which I can't find). Bottom line is that they tested me for everything under the sun for 6 days. I have some anemia things going on but they are not too bad. Those numbers are actually coming up. Burning and irritation is directly a result of being given Cymbalta in a very hypothyroid state and then taking it away. Screwed my brain chemestry up and there is not time table on how long it will take to right itself. Seems that once pathways are formed that it is hard to re-route things. It is so obvious to me that only thos with expertise in these drugs should be prescribing them...my former Dr. prescribed Cymbalta like candy and she has learned from me. Oh well, let the anger go....
> 
> And no, I do not have any sign of cancer and all of the other things that folks hear were so worried about. They had seen antibodies higher than mine before...although they did say mine were waaaaaaaaay up there when first discovered. Anyway, the Psychiatrist there and the one I am now seeing here now (had to becuase of the cymbalta issue) both said that giving SNRI's to a thyroid patient who is not in a good place is very tricky. They also said that once my thyroid levels get stable and stay there for some time, this thing should dissapate (although may take a long time). Until then, I have to live with it and am taking a low dose of doxipen which seems to help some with sleep. I am also working on other things to help me cope and not "hyperfocus" on my damn physical condition. Has made a huge difference. I have also learned a ton about how Hashis affexts your CBC, etc... but all my numbers are coming back up and look pretty good. They were down for a while but n the comback. By the way, I highly recommend eating clean ang gluten free because I think that has helped my numbers(but that is my own theary). the thought I may have celiacs (that was a guess) but could not test for it becuae I had not eaten gluten in 6 months....I believe gluten should be out of every hashi diet.
> 
> ...


It should not alarm your endo; this is good! FT3 fluctuates a little during the day and it peaks in 4 hours so depending on when you had your labs and took your Armour???

You are good to go and I am praying you recover from the damage Cymbalta caused.

Absolutely about the exercise. I do exercise early in the day for a sound night's sleep. If I exercise too close to my bedtime, it has a tendency to disallow falling asleep.

You can expect your FT4 to drop some more. This is of little consequence and is par for the course when taking any form of T3.


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

this is great. My endo probably knows that. He sent me a little letter saying that my new results were better than the last ones (T3 was really high but that was becuae of draw in am) and to let him know if I had any hyper symptoms. Unfortunately, with all I am going through irritability, etc..is probably coming from the psych meds and not thyroid. The main symptom I look for is pulse quickening, etc..and that has not happend. Hell, maybe something is starting to go right.

On the other note for people interested, my psych is pretty much telling me that we are going to have to go back through the forrest a bit to get out on the other side. Seems that when you take a sub theraputic dose of med, it can work for a few days but then back up on you becuae it is too low a dose. I really like her and she is confident that we will come out on the other side of this issue. Funny, we may have to use something like Symbalta itself to get there. If I had been a patient of hers, she would have probably put me back on it and then tried to wean me off extremely slowly. Anyway, fighting the good fight here. Struggling to find something to be grateful for every day. I do belive that joy comes from gratitude...gots to get me some...


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

markwillplay said:


> duh...I just read that you should not get tested after taking the armour right away becuae free t3 will show high. I feel a little better now (ha ha0. So, Andros, how lng should I wait after I take it to get tested next time? I usually take it about 730 in the morning. Should I wait until after lunch? the last time, I think I went about 10 in the morning. Thanks, Mark


I always take my Armour at 5 AM "except" on lab day. I get labs usually around 9 AM and then take my Armour after the blood draw.

I did not used to do this but the new filler in Armour is gangbusters (I like it) and it absorbs so much faster.

Please read this..........
Liothyronine (T3)
is almost totally absorbed, 95 percent in 4 hours.
http://www.frx.com/pi/armourthyroid_pi.pdf

So............I would wait at least until you have had it in your system 6 hours. See how that works. LOL! Hey, let me know, will ya'?


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

September 19
Tsh .29
Free T3 3.7 (2.0-4.4)
Free t4 .94 (.82-1.77

Dec 4
tsh .22 (you know the range)
Free T3 3.9 (2.0-4.4)
Free T4 .85 (.82-1.77)
Vit D 75 (30-100)
B12..600 (250-1100)

I am taking B12 (the new nostril spray)
taking 2000 vit D a day (probably could up that a bit.

I feel pretty dog on good. I am still battling the anxiety from cymbalta withdrawal but that is going to be a long haul and I have accepted that. I am having to go back through the forest to get to the other side, but I have a great psychiatrist who completely understands what happened to me and she is guiding me.

My Endo still asks about hyper symptoms but I told him that I still feel good and not too much on edge. Pulse is around 55 during the day and low 50's at night. I am exercising every day. He says he has pother patients doing well on armour too. I think he is actually "discovering" this in his practice as I know his first inclination is synthroid...but he is open minded and has no problem with armour.

Andros and other armour users, help me out here...but I think that my TSH is probably not going to fall much more because it has gone from 2.9 to .22 in 3 months.

I supose I could always back off a hair if I need to but for now, I think I am pretty good. What do these test results look like to the folks who are doing well on armour here?


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## RandomUserAZ (Nov 21, 2012)

Might want to clarify the TSH. You list .29 and .22 then say 2.9 and 2.2 later.


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

duh.... .29 Sept .22 December, typo


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

markwillplay said:


> September 19
> Tsh .29
> Free T3 3.7 (2.0-4.4)
> Free t4 .94 (.82-1.77
> ...


No, don't back off. This is why you feel good. TSH is no longer useful for dosing decisions. Your FREE T3 is the criteria now. FT4 will be low and TSH almost suppressed if not completely suppressed. This is normal.

My TSH is always 0.03 or less.

Here is some info which may be helpful.

Dr. Mercola (FREES)
http://www.mercola.com/article/hypothyroid/diagnosis_comp.htm

Free T3 and Free T4 are the only accurate measurement of the actual active thyroid hormone levels in the body. This is the hormone that is actually free and exerting effect on the cells. These are the thyroid hormones that count.

When taking exogenous T3, FT4 is lower and not to be tampered with. Armour is the perfect 4 to 1 ratio.

How much Armour do you take? I am on 3 1/2 grains and have been for years!


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

105 mg

not sure what a greain is but it it is 30mg then I take 3 1/2, if it is 60, I take 2 and a smidge... Sounds great. I have plenty of energy at this time and so I am good to go. It has taken a while. I think I woas fine on synthroid too now that I know it was not causeing my burning and electrical sensations. But no switching back for me. My own Endo would not hear of it. Not that I wanted to, but when I said that I knew now that my burning and sensations were not from the synthroid and that I would have probably been fine on that, he looked at me and said, "no need to change back...I would not" and I could not agree more!


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

hey, I know lots of people (really) that are doing quite well on that drug..we are all different.. But I can tell you that oxy and all the other drugs do not compare for me. I have been on oxy after surgery and was surely dependent on it...made up my mind to stop, went through s little hell, and off I was. It was hard but nothing like the crazy symptoms I have endured from this....nothing. How ironic tht I now have to take a drug that does similar things to try to navigate my way to some sense of normal. I understand the physiology of it now and I simply have to do it. If these sensations ever totally stop and I decide to get off the drugs I am on, I will be taking my time (don't care how long it takes) to wean off under the care of a good psych.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

markwillplay said:


> 105 mg
> 
> not sure what a greain is but it it is 30mg then I take 3 1/2, if it is 60, I take 2 and a smidge... Sounds great. I have plenty of energy at this time and so I am good to go. It has taken a while. I think I woas fine on synthroid too now that I know it was not causeing my burning and electrical sensations. But no switching back for me. My own Endo would not hear of it. Not that I wanted to, but when I said that I knew now that my burning and sensations were not from the synthroid and that I would have probably been fine on that, he looked at me and said, "no need to change back...I would not" and I could not agree more!


One grain of Armour is 60 mgs. which contains 38 mcg. of T4 and 9 mcg. of T3.

I am truly glad you are feeling better! What a blessing and you really did need that T3 big time.

As you become more active due to feeling better, you may have to have Armour increased a few more time.


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## TexasDenise (Sep 22, 2012)

How are you feeling Matt? Long time no talk to.


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

it's mark (ha ha). Anyway, I am some better. The burning is still systemic and I deal with it. Over the last 6 months, it has SLOWLY gotten better. I am taking a different antidepressant and a small dose and it may be helping a bit. I am coping and have been through all sorts of different therapies to let everyone take their shot. My Psych is very conservitive with meds and as long as I make any progress, we are staying the course. What a ride this has been. I have had to back off thoughts that this will go away in the ?near future" and just take the view that it could last for years....but as long as I make some progress....oh well. There is no where else to go and no other docs to talk to. I have seen the gammet and have had to accept the fact that there is no quick cure.

Having said that, I believe that my thyroid levels are very stable now and I have good energy. I maintain my healthy diet (gluten free, mostly dairy free, no processed meats, etc...) and can truly say that I am "better" now than I was 6 months ago. The burning is just left over from the fallout of the Cymbalta withdrawal and hopefully, it will gradually go away...no time table.

Thanks for asking, Mark


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

Glad to see your thyroid levels are stable now and you have good energy. But that sure stinks about the burning/Cymbalta. I hope it resolves for you sooner rather than later.

:hugs:


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## markwillplay (May 12, 2012)

hey Andros, that article said we should split out armour into two doses...AFTER breakfast and AFTER dinner. I take all of mine first thing in the morning and don't eat for an hour......??? Which do you do?


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