# What happens if you take natural dessicated thyroid when you don't need it? (explanation inside)



## Cinnamon16 (May 29, 2014)

Hi all,

I'm a 25-year-old male who recently had a thyroid panel taken (and posted on this forum). My results were as follows:

*TSH*: 4.31 (ideal range: 0.3 - 3.0)

*Free T4*: 1.16 (ideal range: 1.3 - 1.6)

*Free T3*: 3.4 (ideal range: 3.4 - 3.6)

*TPO Ab*: 9 (ideal range: < 9)

*Hemoglobin A1C*: 5.2% (ideal range: less than 6%)

*Vitamin D*: 100 (good)

*Ferritin*: 122 (good)

Afterward, my doctor prescribed me natural dessicated thyroid (WP-thyroid, not the reformulated Armour).

However, she also said that I may not have a thyroid problem at all; she noted that my T4 is only ever-so-slightly low, and that my T3 is "gorgeous."

She speculated that the high TPO Ab may be due to an autoimmune reaction to something, which would knock my TSH out of whack. She said I may not need the meds.

This is interesting to me, because

1.) I have some hypo symptoms (brain fog, lethargy, anxiety, poor sex drive, poor sleep schedule, can't lose belly fat, etc), but not some of the trademarks (dry skin, cold sensitivity, constipation).

2.) I had a thyroid panel last year, and every single number was golden. ( http://i.imgur.com/cHgVotk.png to see my May 2014 results vs. Aug 2015 results). This would indicate an anomalous immune reaction of some kind.

*My question, and the reason I'm here*: Let's assume, hypothetically, that my skewed recent numbers are due to an autoimmune reaction, and not Hashi's/thyroiditis. Let's assume I don't actually need the meds.

*If I take natural dessicated thyroid for a few weeks to see if it works, despite not needing it, do I run the risk of altering my long-term thyroid function? Or skewing my (good) T4 and T3 levels?*

Thanks!


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## joplin1975 (Jul 21, 2011)

You are more at risk for cardiac issues. If you do not need it, your symptoms will likely be a racing heart, heart palps, sweating, anxiety, jittery feelings, increased bowel mobility, etc.

NDT will lower free t4 and raise free t3. Why were you started on that, rather than a t4 med, like synthroid?


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## fttfbass (Jan 8, 2014)

Are those "ideal ranges" the actual normal ranges provided by the lab? The range on the Free T3 seems like a really small window. For example, my lab range is usually 2.0-4.4 and yours is only 3.4-3.6. Different labs do use different ranges, but yours seems to be a bit odd.


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## Cinnamon16 (May 29, 2014)

Lab ranges are practically useless; they take an average of every single patient who takes a test, rather than the actual ideal/healthy ranges.

This is why many labs say a "normal" TSH is anywhere from 0.5 - 5.0, whereas the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists (among many other sources ) say anything over 3.0 should be considered hypo.

This is also why 25-year-old men are being told that a testosterone level of 396 is "normal" (since 300-1100 is the range in many labs, since they're taking the results of unhealthy men, obese men, and elderly men as well).

*TL;DR:* It's far more useful to do research on what the clinically recognized "healthy" ranges are for your age group and fitness level are, rather than relying upon inaccurate "lab ranges.


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## Cinnamon16 (May 29, 2014)

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## fttfbass (Jan 8, 2014)

Lab ranges are useful if you know where to shoot for in the range. Are the ideal ranges that you listed in the 50%-75% portion of the normal lab ranges that were provided by the lab for Free T4 and Free T3? That's why I asked.

I'm well aware of issues with testosterone and doctors. When I was last checked I had an average total testosterone of a man in his 50's and an average free testosterone of a man in his 80's. I was told that my levels were great by my endocrinologist at the time. I'm only 34. They only care if total testosterone drops below 300.


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## Lovlkn (Dec 20, 2009)

Are you having an actual blood draw or is this a blood spot test?

Your range is not useful, too small to be a useful range and has never been posted on this site which would lead me to question the validity of the test.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

It would help to know your starting dose of NDT.

Your symptoms, low FREE T3 and TSH indicate that you would benefit from this med.

Welcome to the board.


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## Cinnamon16 (May 29, 2014)

Lovlkn said:


> Are you having an actual blood draw or is this a blood spot test?
> 
> Your range is not useful, too small to be a useful range and has never been posted on this site which would lead me to question the validity of the test.


I used the ideal range; read my comment from above to learn why lab ranges are generally useless.


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## Cinnamon16 (May 29, 2014)

Andros said:


> It would help to know your starting dose of NDT.
> 
> Your symptoms, low FREE T3 and TSH indicate that you would benefit from this med.
> 
> Welcome to the board.


Thanks for your response! I've been given a starting dose of 1/4th grain.


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## joplin1975 (Jul 21, 2011)

Folks on this board are reaaaaaaaaaaaally proficient at reading lab results and do understand the difference between "normal" ranges and ideal ranges. It's helpful to know how your numbers move around within those ranges, even if they don't represent ideal numbers. My suggestion would be to acknowledge their expertise and provide as much information as possible without too much editing.


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## Cinnamon16 (May 29, 2014)

fttfbass said:


> Lab ranges are useful if you know where to shoot for in the range. Are the ideal ranges that you listed in the 50%-75% portion of the normal lab ranges that were provided by the lab for Free T4 and Free T3? That's why I asked.


The range for Free T3 was 2.0 - 4.4 (I was 3.4); the range for Free T4 was 0.82 - 1.77 (I was 1.16)


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## Cinnamon16 (May 29, 2014)

joplin1975 said:


> Folks on this board are reaaaaaaaaaaaally proficient at reading lab results and do understand the difference between "normal" ranges and ideal ranges. It's helpful to know how your numbers move around within those ranges, even if they don't represent ideal numbers. My suggestion would be to acknowledge their expertise and provide as much information as possible without too much editing.


What I frequently see is people simply looking at thyroid ranges, and then assessing whether or not my numbers are "normal" within the range provided by the lab.

My thought is, I want information from people who have done their research, who are familiar with the updated standards, and know what the ideal ranges are without looking at lab ranges (which vary from lab to lab).

Anybody can simply look at a lab range, and make some sort of proclamation based on where my number fits within that range; I (and loved ones) have been mislead by that mode of thinking in the past, and it's not why I came here (after all, I could do that on my own, easily).


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## joplin1975 (Jul 21, 2011)

Well, you've got lots of people who not only have done their research, but who have lived it and are living it. When you determine what the idea ranges are, without giving them the opportunity to suggest to you what the ideal ranges are, you are doing yourself a disservice.

We're all here to help. We've all been there, done that. We're not doctors who have been under the influence from pharm companies. If you look at other posts, you will have a hard time finding anyone who suggest that, for example, a TSH of 3.5 is normal. I never seen it here. If you look, post after post after post talks about the different between normal and ideal. It...feels very odd to have someone come in, ask for help, and then withhold information. To be clear, I'm not trying to be adversarial. I want you to get the help you need because I very much understand how debilitating thyroid conditions can be.


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

Cinnamon16 said:


> My thought is, I want information from people who have done their research, who are familiar with the updated standards, and know what the ideal ranges are without looking at lab ranges (which vary from lab to lab).


Well, the thing is, the IDEAL is going to vary from lab to lab BECAUSE different labs have different ranges. For example, my Free T3 result of 1.2 from my lab may be very, very different from your Free T3 result of 1.2 from your lab.

While most labs use the same range for TSH, that's far from true for other thyroid tests.


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## fttfbass (Jan 8, 2014)

Cinnamon16 said:


> The range for Free T3 was 2.0 - 4.4 (I was 3.4); the range for Free T4 was 0.82 - 1.77 (I was 1.16)


Your Free T3 is a little under 60% of the reference range, while your Free T4 is roughly at 35% of the reference range. We usually shoot for between 50-75% of the range. Most people feel better with Free T3 up around 75% of the range, which would be 3.8 for you.

With being symptomatic, having a highish TSH and Free's lower than optimal, it's worth trying a low dose of thyroid meds to see if it gives you symptom relief.

I don't normally recommend synthetic T4 meds, but I really think you'd be better off trying that first as opposed to starting on NDT. It looks like you may only need a small dose. People who take thyroid meds that contain T3, which NDT does, usually have to work up to a full replacement dose which could leave you feeling more hypothyroid in the meantime (especially on such a tiny 1/4 grain starting dose).

It may not be a bad idea to get a 4x/day saliva test done for your adrenals because your symptoms do kind of point in that direction as well. Adrenals that aren't functioning optimally can mess with thyroid function, among many other things.


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## Lovlkn (Dec 20, 2009)

Cinnamon16 said:


> Thanks for your response! I've been given a starting dose of 1/4th grain.


Were your labs drawn prior to or after beginning your 1/4 grain?


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Good; that is the proper protocol and as you probably know, labs for FREE T3 should be run every 6 to 8 weeks and NDT should be titrated upward by 1/4 each time until such time you feel well and your FREE T3 is at about 75% of the range provided by your lab for this test.

It takes time and patience but well worth the effort.


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## Cinnamon16 (May 29, 2014)

Lovlkn said:


> Were your labs drawn prior to or after beginning your 1/4 grain?


Prior to; I just picked up the prescription last Thursday, and have yet to begin.


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## Lovlkn (Dec 20, 2009)

Cinnamon16 said:


> Prior to; I just picked up the prescription last Thursday, and have yet to begin.


When you lab - I might suggest going in the morning, early, before you take your medication as taking medication prior to the lab draw does not give an accurate reading.


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