# Can you ever go back to a previous drug?



## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

They say we can never go back home but has anyone ever gone back to a previous thyroid drug? I had my latest labs last week but don't have any results yet. My endocrinologist's P.A. is out on maternity leave and I'm sure they thought they'd discuss my results tomorrow when I see the doctor. I have felt so bad, particularly this past week, that I am seriously considering trying to start over again - possibly even changing doctors, which I don't want to do but the fact remains that I'm not doing well and I don't feel like I'm being treated aggressively enough.

I got to thinking about something this past weekend - I personally know at least twelve people locally, including two men, who all have varying forms of thyroid disease. I am the only one taking Armour and the only one having so many problems! I started out with Synthroid and did extremely well *initially* then it seemed like I felt terribly hyperthyroid and the doctor couldn't seem to control the symptoms by regulating dosage of the drug so she switched me to Armour. I wanted Armour, I'd heard so many good things about it, my test results were good with Synthroid but the symptoms were worrisome _and I wanted to try Armour._

I've done O.K. with test results on Armour (low but in range) but I can't help thinking the drug may not be working well FOR ONE REASON.

What I have never understood is why everytime I've gotten an increase in dosage with Armour (60 to 90 to 105 to 120) I've seemed to feel great for awhile...but then my euphoria vaporizes and I fall back into almost debilitating fatigue. Everytime I've been given a dosage increase it seemed like my heart symptoms temporarily improved, particularly palpitations I've been having almost since I was initially diagnosed several years ago.

My one reason to wonder about Armour giving me conflicting signals? For weeks my blood pressure has been unbelievably normal but my heart rate has been creeping up, to the point where in the last few days it was uncomfortable...114 last Sunday night at midnight! Monday I took my prescriptions as usual, my blood pressure never got above 120/60...but my heart rate stayed around 100 all day.

Yesterday morning I decided on the spur of the moment not to take my Armour. Within hours my heart rate was subsiding.

I skipped the Armour again this morning - my heart rate is perfect as well as my blood pressure.

I hate going to see my endocrinologist and not having some reasonable explanation of my symptoms. I'm so tired and so tired of being tired that I really feel like I'm on the verge of giving up, I'm getting to where I don't even want to discuss it. Everytime I see the doctor some little change is made, I usually feel better for a few days, then I crash and have to wait another 4-5 weeks before being retested, etc. If I call the doctor's office asking for help, I always get put off...always with the same explanation that it takes a month or so to see how a change works. I don't know that I believe that!

I haven't discussed how I feel with everyone I personally know who has thyroid disease but several have told me they tried Armour, including a retired doctor) but they couldn't take it. Two of my neighbors who have had thyroid surgery have told me they couldn't take Armour and prefer Synthroid. Did I shoot myself in the foot asking for Armour?

At this point, I am obviously grabbing at straws but I can't help second-guessing myself and my doctor. Maybe instead of trying to tweak my 125 mcg dose of Synthroid by skipping days, etc., it might have been better to try a lower dose on a regular schedule. Maybe if I hadn't been so excited to try Armour she would have eventually reached the point where she would have suggested something else. I'm not sure if I influenced her too much or what? I nearly started crying when she suggested a lower dose of Synthroid because I was so hellbent that I needed more, not less.

My last test results with Synthroid (December 22, 2011) were normal but I didn't feel well. My next tests, with Armour in February, 2012) were low but that was when the lab tech had dropped the vial of blood and I didn't really trust the results - including a 5.5 result on the Thyroglobulin Tumor Marker (with a range of 0).

Tomorrow I'll get new results on T4 Free, T3 Free, TSH and a new Thyroglobulin Tumor Marker. It's no telling what the numbers will be - my guess is they'll be good...but I don't feel well and I think there is evidence that may suggest Armour is raising my heart rate. I've been on Toprol XL for several years.

As I sit here right now, I honestly don't know what else to say to my endocrinologist. If she sends me back to the cardiologist, I'm going to request a repeat of every heart test I've had and I've had everything except a heart catherization. IF that happens AND the cardiologist tells me one more time that my heart symptoms are all related to my thyroid, I'm going to go out of state to another endocrinologist!

I know everyone thinks I'm a nutcase and I don't disagree!! The one thing I cannot get past since my thyroid was removed is basically, irregardless of test results, I cannot hold onto a feeling of being whole again. Something isn't right and I'm at my wit's end! I feel like I'm driving my psychiatrist crazy! If our cardiologist wasn't a longtime friend, I don't even know if he'd keep repeatedly seeing me. I love my endocrinologist but it's killing me to just keep complaining and never finding any answers. I have the best, most thorough, internist in the city. I don't know how my husband tolerates living with my craziness. BUT I NEVER FEEL WELL! :anim_03:


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## joplin1975 (Jul 21, 2011)

Oh, ID Claire, I'm sorry you are still feeling so unwell...

It's hard to say without looking at your labs, but I'm wondering out loud here if it wouldn't be good to try a different form of Levothyroxine...I remember one poster who exhausted all other options seemed to have success of Tirosint (http://tirosintgelcaps.com/index.php?page=whytirosint). Maybe its not the issue of t4 only vs. t4/t3 combos, but how the t4 is delivered? Totally guessing, but I wanted to let you know that I'm so sorry you are still struggling!


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## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

Can I ask one more question? Believe it or not, I haven't always been such a dingaling. I used to enjoy a very busy, very productive life - I've always enjoyed working hard and accomplishing goals.

I've always thought having to have an emergency hysterectomy in the 1980's took something out of my besides my reproductive organs - for a long, long time I felt like I was no longer the person I'd been and it took years to kinda' get over it.

Now I also wonder if my thyroid surgery hasn't done a mental job on me? For 10 months, I've been all but fixated on every tiny thing that happens with my health, every physical symptom. I cannot stop feeling like, again, I've lost something that no drug can replace.

I know that the suicide rate is high for people who have undergone heart surgery, even when their surgery is a complete success. Women who have given birth to beautiful babies often plunge into depression. I wonder often if I am so wildly oversensitive to my symptoms OR dealing with a depression unlike ordinary clinical depression that has to do with surgery??? Anti-depressants don't phase me and my psychiatrist and endocrinologist both agree that whatever has swallowed me is related to my surgery but I can't find the way out and it's getting rather exhausting.


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

I guess for some it would be easy to blame a successful surgery for a suicide, but the reality is that the infinite majority of these people had psychological problems BEFORE the surgery.

I'm not saying this is true of you, but many people don't want to look inward at their issues and look to fix the blame for not having a full and active life on something else [e.g., surgery].

That you've been "fixated" on health issues makes me wonder if you need to find more in life to make you happy. Why not invest a few hours of your time and consult a psychologist with whom you can discuss these things with?


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## Lovlkn (Dec 20, 2009)

I DClaire

I thought you gave up on the levo replacement awful quickly.

I can't remember your labs on it or how you were converting to FT-3.

My close friend had been on both due to insurance and the fact her Cytomel was going to cost her $1k annually so she had to make a switch to Armour due to finances. Her transition was horrible, she has since found out she is allergic to the Armour and must take daily antihistamine to be able to take it.

She felt mush better on Unithroid and Cytomel.

Have you had your Ferritin levels, Vit D levels and B-12 levels checked? Until I got all that straightened out I did not feel well on replacement - today I feel completely dialed in and have been on the same doses for several years now.


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## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

CA-Lynn said:


> I guess for some it would be easy to blame a successful surgery for a suicide, but the reality is that the infinite majority of these people had psychological problems BEFORE the surgery.
> 
> I'm not saying this is true of you, but many people don't want to look inward at their issues and look to fix the blame for not having a full and active life on something else [e.g., surgery].
> 
> That you've been "fixated" on health issues makes me wonder if you need to find more in life to make you happy. Why not invest a few hours of your time and consult a psychologist with whom you can discuss these things with?


Do you believe women who suffer with postpartum depression had underlying psychological problems? I know for a fact that doctors warn families of heart surgery patients to watch for signs of depression because of the number of suicides. I think a deep, profound hormonal change could trigger depression and there are many different degrees of depression.

I've had a wonderful psychiatrist for several years. She is in some ways closer to me than a physician/patient relationship and has brought up her belief that what I'm dealing with is related to my surgery. I honestly believe if I felt well, I would/could be happier...always feeling lethargic fatigue but somewhat keyed-up, never knowing from one day to the next if I'll feel "shaky", trying to find any balance between thyroid hormone supplements and heart symptoms, gaining weight when I KNOW I'm not eating that much, etc., etc., makes having the energy and stamina to do anything tedious at best.

I tried to get back on earlier today but couldn't for some reason. Joplin, my endocrinologist thinks a lot of this has to do with my liver not processing drugs correctly and I really tend to agree but I don't know how to work around that. She thought my liver absorbed and held onto Synthroid so I'd end up over-medicated but the last time I saw her a month ago she said it almost looked like my liver wasn't absorbing Armour. I've had trouble with prescription drugs my entire adult life and so did my father. There is never anyway to predict how drugs will effect me and I have to be pretty careful.

I just want to feel well again so badly. I want to feel like myself again and enjoy life again instead of always or generally feeling so woefully tired.


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## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

Lovlkn said:


> I DClaire
> 
> I thought you gave up on the levo replacement awful quickly.
> 
> ...


I always have to go dig around to find my test results. I found them in another thread where I was complaining about the same thing - I get a dosage change, feel better for a few days, crash...then have to wait several more weeks to be retested and see the doctor again.

Here are my test results. My internist has checked EVERYTHING else - the only problem was my "bad" cholesterol was high. He wants to put me on a statin but I said I've got to get my thyroid problems under control before I throw another variable in the mix!!

I took 125 mcg Synthroid from September 24 until December 21, 2011...then switched to Armour. I've gone from 60 mg to 90 mg to 105 mg to 120 mg. On the thread with my test results I'd also noted something else that is still true - I don't know that (after a few days) I can tell any difference in the amount of Armour I'm taking. I get an increase, I feel more normal for a few days, then poof...I'm down again.

Numbers-wise, I think I did well with Synthroid but I had so many side effects.

I dunno...! :ashamed0005: Another fact that is worrying me to death is that after a complete hysterectomy around 1986 I NEVER could tolerate any estrogen replacement drugs. That was before compounded drugs but you just cannot imagine what I went through with that. I've got to find a thyroid hormone replacement!!

*T4 FREE - Ranges 0.8-1.5*

November 10, 2011 - 1.4 (taking 125 mcg Synthroid)
December 22, 2011 - 1.4 (taking 125 mcg Synthroid)

February 22, 2012 - 0.6 (taking 60 mg Armour)*** 
March 21, 2012 - 1.0 (taking 90 mg Armour since February 22, 2012)
April 4, 2012 - 0.9 (blood drawn mid-afternoon instead of mid-morning)
April 27, 2012 - 0.8 (taking 105 mg Armour since April 6, 2012)
May 31, 2012 - 1.0 (have been taking 120 mg Armour since May 3)

*T3 FREE - Ranges 2.0 - 3.6*

November 10, 2011 - 2.9 (taking 125 mcg Synthroid)
December 22, 2011 - 2.5 (taking 125 mcg Synthroid)

February 22, 2012 - 1.8** *
March 21, 2010 - 1.0
April 4, 2012 - 2.8
April 27, 2012 - 2.6 
May 31, 2012 - 3.1

*TSH - Ranges 0.37-4.55*

November 10, 2011 - 0.059
December 22, 2011 - 0.455

February 22, 2012 - 28.900***
March 21, 2012 - 1.750
April 4, 2012 - 0.904
April 27, 2012 - 0.427
May 31, 2012 - 0.030

*Thyglobulin Tumor Mrk - Range 0*

November 10, 2011 - 0.3
February 22, 2012 - 5.5 ***

I was switched from 60 mg Armour to 90 mg Armour on February 22, 2012.

Switched to 105 mg Armour on April 6, 2012.

Switching to 120 mg Armour on May 3, 2012.

** I told the doctor the lab tech dropped the vial of blood drawn on 2/22/12.*

Thyroidectomy - September 23, 2011


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## CA-Lynn (Apr 29, 2010)

IDC:

To answer your question: some women with postpartum depression do indeed have underlying psychological problems. But the majority of women with PPD do have a neuro-hormonal imbalance brought on by the pregnancy/childbirth.

Some patients who have had cardiac surgeries may fall into a depression, but odds of it fulminating into suicide are rare. Incidentally, a number of these people had psych problems prior to the surgery. Others just didn't deal well with the stress preceding the operation. In the majority of cases it's a psych problem and not a systemic problem.


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## Lovlkn (Dec 20, 2009)

I DClaire said:


> I always have to go dig around to find my test results. I found them in another thread where I was complaining about the same thing - I get a dosage change, feel better for a few days, crash...then have to wait several more weeks to be retested and see the doctor again.
> 
> Here are my test results. My internist has checked EVERYTHING else - the only problem was my "bad" cholesterol was high. He wants to put me on a statin but I said I've got to get my thyroid problems under control before I throw another variable in the mix!!
> 
> ...


If fatigue was your main complaint on Synthroid - I felt fatigued for at least 2 years post op and did not feel well until I added Cytomel to my Levo mix.

If you change back to a Levo - try a different brand at 100mcg and 5mcg of Cytomel.

Tweak using both meds and see if you feel better.

Your high FT-4 would make me feel horrible, we are all different but you did not feel good there either.

I am no doctor - I am a very experienced thyroid patient and speak from my experiences. Medication dosing comes down to the pinch for me now because I keep good records of symptoms and how I "feel". I am also very sensitive to prescription medications.


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

I DClaire said:


> I know everyone thinks I'm a nutcase and I don't disagree!!


I don't think you're a nutcase.

Unless this is you, and that's another story altogether... http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nasca...scar-deceased-man-over-021212570--nascar.html


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## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

Octavia said:


> I don't think you're a nutcase.
> 
> Unless this is you, and that's another story altogether... http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nasca...scar-deceased-man-over-021212570--nascar.html


No matter what anybody else does in the name of thyroid fog, they'll have to get up early in the morning to top what I did today!

I have to drive 25-30 miles to my endocrinologist's office - it's in another city. There is also an enormous plant nursery/pottery/import shop in that city SO when I go to see the doctor I always stop and shop at the pottery!

It has been raining here since sometime in the night so I had that to contend with driving, it took 15 minutes to ever find a parking place, then I got drenched trying to get in the building. My doctor was running very late for some reason but ended-up probably spending close to an hour with me.

When I finally got back to my car (still pouring down rain) I found an 18-wheeler parked behind my car and countless other people unloading something so I had to wait for all that. But, I finally got out and hurried to the pottery!

I walked around for close to an hour then got in line with my shopping cart behind no less than six other customers...five of whom checked out before it dawned on me that I hadn't put anything in my cart! :ashamed0002::ashamed0001:

The attention my endocrinologist gives me is extraordinary and I honestly do appreciate the unhurried way she tries to listen and share information. My T4 Free, T3 Free and TSH test results virtually stayed identical to what they were on May 31 and the Thyroglobulin Tumor Marker dropped to 0.2 from the crazy 5.5 last February.

I learned something I've never seen mentioned here - according to my doctor, TSH normal ranges are not true or reliable when the patient is on Armour. My doctor says she has almost 200 patients on Armour and TSH's normal range is not the tool for measuring Armour like it is for Synthroid.

I told her I still feel infinitely more fatigue than I believe is to be expected and she said she could look at me and tell I didn't feel well. We discussed every imaginable possibility - I didn't realize she had also tested for diabetes (as has my internist) and those results were fine, I believe she said that was all tested last January or February.

Tomorrow I'm to go back to the lab for the following tests:

CBC with auto diff
Iron Profile (Iron, UIBC, Ferritin)
Vitamin B12 and Folate
Vitamin D Total (25-OH)
Check FE-TIBC for medical necessity (?)

She also said I can experiment with another 15 mg Armour - she suggested taking an additional 15 mg every other day with my standard 120 mg dose...thinking being that everytime my dosage is increased, I feel better temporarily and my heart palpitations improve temporarily. She thinks 135 mg every day would be a stretch but I appreciated the freedom to experiment with her blessing.

SO!! We'll see! My blood pressure/pulse were perfect.

We got off on talking about hysterectomies, estrogen replacement, etc., and she said all that no doubt plays into the problems women my age have trying to manage thyroid problems. I also found out there is a thyroid patients support group in the same city in Texas as the specialist I'm considering trying to see but not until I feel like I'm entirely out of options here. My doctor is sincerely trying to help and I'm bound and determined to hang in there.


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## DonnaK (Mar 22, 2011)

Sorry to hear you are having such trouble with medication. I have been reading that a recent reformulation of Armour has many people unable to take it now. Although, just yesterday some were saying they seemed to have gone back to closer to the original. The original pills were on the softer side and most would take it sublinguily,(sp?) but the reformulation made them hard and impossible to take that way. Not sure if the softer pills again means they are back to origianl as the FDA made them change the formulation initially so I don't know how they could go back to the original, but maybe you are just unable to tolerate the Armour like many people now.

I'm not that experienced with any of the medications yet as I just started three weeks ago, I just try to read a lot. I am not able to make a suggestion for you with my limited experience, but thought the Armour info may be helpful.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

I DClaire said:


> No matter what anybody else does in the name of thyroid fog, they'll have to get up early in the morning to top what I did today!
> 
> I have to drive 25-30 miles to my endocrinologist's office - it's in another city. There is also an enormous plant nursery/pottery/import shop in that city SO when I go to see the doctor I always stop and shop at the pottery!
> 
> ...


You do have a wonderful doctor and to top it off, I do believe she really really cares about you! As you know, I am on 225 mgs. of Armour (3 1/2 grains) so what she says makes a whole lot of sense to me and I am factoring that we each are different......................................but????? Ya' know?

Undermedicated can make you totally miserable.


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## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

This week has taken a rather sudden twist! I had planned to visit with three friends having surgery in three different hospitals this week but, unfortunately, I've ended-up in yet a fourth hospital! Yep! I had to be taken to the ER yesterday morning around 5:30 with what felt like heart attack symptoms.

At 9:00 Monday night I noted on my blood pressure notebook that my numbers were beautiful - 120/67, pulse 78. By 5:00 A.M. Tuesday, my blood pressure was a little over 200, diastolic something like 98, heart rate numbers well over 100. I couldn't breathe, was sweating/clammy, shallow breathing, weak, faint, you name it...BUT...SO FAR HEART DISEASE HAS BEEN ALL BUT RULED OUT!! I'll bet nobody was expecting that!

I've had four heart attack enzyme blood panels, a CAT scan of my chest/lungs, U/S, several EKGs...and da' heart is good! In two weeks (when dye medium from this CAT scan has dissipated, I'm to have a special heart CAT scan but right now the cardiologist says he is not ordering a heart catherization and I just recently had a nuclear stress test and doplar echocardiogram. I've been tested for blood clots and deep vein trombosis - both normal.

I believe I had a massive anxiety attack! Why? Because this morning at 2:30 (while hooked to a 24/7 heart monitor), I had another similar attack. The security of being in the hospital and being on the monitor seemed to give me the confidence to really think through the way I was feeling, the same or similar symptoms to yesterday morning, and it felt like panic - extraordinary panic!

The doctor gave me one Xanax and within 10-15 minutes the pain was gone and I slept until 5:00 A.M. when awakened for more tests.

I've probably seen ten doctors in the past two days and not one seems to think this has anything to do with my thyroid medication, Armour. I mention Armour and they act like I've said a foreign word! I had to supply my own Armour for my daily dose this morning because the hospital pharmacy doesn't carry it!!

I'd better skidaddle before I lose what I've written.


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

Yikes!

So...if they've never heard of Armour, are they being too quick to rule it out as a possible cause? Just a thought.

I'm glad your heart tests are coming out fine...but I sure wish they'd get this figured out for you!


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

I DClaire said:


> This week has taken a rather sudden twist! I had planned to visit with three friends having surgery in three different hospitals this week but, unfortunately, I've ended-up in yet a fourth hospital! Yep! I had to be taken to the ER yesterday morning around 5:30 with what felt like heart attack symptoms.
> 
> At 9:00 Monday night I noted on my blood pressure notebook that my numbers were beautiful - 120/67, pulse 78. By 5:00 A.M. Tuesday, my blood pressure was a little over 200, diastolic something like 98, heart rate numbers well over 100. I couldn't breathe, was sweating/clammy, shallow breathing, weak, faint, you name it...BUT...SO FAR HEART DISEASE HAS BEEN ALL BUT RULED OUT!! I'll bet nobody was expecting that!
> 
> ...


Good grief! Did anyone take a glucose reading while you were in the ER??

Our poor poor friend. I am so upset to hear all of this.


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## joplin1975 (Jul 21, 2011)

Oh, no...IDC!!!! So sorry to hear this. Wishing you all the best and a speedy recovery!


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## bigfoot (May 13, 2011)

Yes, here's to you feeling better soon! You have been searching and searching for answers and I can totally relate. Each of us is so different with what we require and what our medical story is. I really don't know enough about this stuff, but I am brainstorming and throwing things out here:

* Have any docs checked your Reverse T3 levels? I know in my case they were through the roof, despite "normal" TSH, FT4, and FT3. I have no idea how Reverse T3 works in someone who had a TT.

* Do you take Vitamin D? I think docs that think outside the box are seeing a need for 2,000+ IU a day.

* Same for B-12. I was recently enlightened that blood levels and functional levels of these sorts of vitamins are two different beasts. (My B-12 looks fine on blood work, but functionally it was very low.)

* And again here, Vitamin E as well as Selenium, and Fish Oil.

* Any sort of a chance of a low-lying infection or bacteria? Mono, Lyme, H. Pylori, etc.

* How about neurotransmitter imbalances? Seratonin, dopamine, et al. How is your nutrition? (Although I picture you eating pretty healthy.)

* You alluded to hormone levels. Have you had estrogen and testosterone checked to see where they're at? All play together (sometimes not nicely) with thyroid function.

* Not to be doom and gloom, but have you ever been checked for things like Hepatitis (insert A, B, or C alphabet character here) or AIDS?

* Adrenal glands been checked? Another case of routine blood labs looking fine, but functional (saliva) testing revealing patterns over the course of 24 hours' time.

* Any sort of gluten sensitivity? You probably have already been tested for Celiac Disease, but I'm reading how even just gluten sensitivity can still be a major player.

:anim_32:


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## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

Andros said:


> Good grief! Did anyone take a glucose reading while you were in the ER??
> 
> Our poor poor friend. I am so upset to hear all of this.


I'm back home - just took a 2 hour bath! :anim_40: Talk about feeling grubby! I have probably been tested for everything there is a test for (bloodwise), I've been slathered from head to toe with U/S gel, my hair looked like a nasty old string mop, I must have pulled off more than two dozen leads stuck all over my body, etc., but I am home!!

I truly believe I had a massive anxiety attack early Tuesday morning and a milder one this morning. I have my Xanax so we'll see what tonight brings. My guess is everything will be O.K. now that I'm fairly convinced my heart is fine.

Tomorrow I'm going to start using Nascobal - a B12 nasal spray and my Vitamin D will be doubled. I truly believe I could swallow a jar full of Vitamin D every day and those test results would never change.

Ohhh, I am so tired tonight!! The A/C was broken in the entire hospital but the problem wasn't that it was too hot, it was too cold. It was freezing cold in some areas. I like sleeping in a cold room so that was fine with me - I slept under a sheet, bedspread and two folded blankets.

I have about come to the conclusion that for a 65-year old woman, I'm lucky to have a strong, healthy heart, kidneys, deep veins, no stomach problems, etc. I can't help admitting to myself or suspecting myself that the stress I live with is finally at a point where something has got to give. I don't know that it is even possible to recuperate from thyroid surgery and ever feel stabilized with a thyroid hormone replacement in the environment I live in - so somehow I've got to start making some changes.

Something happened today that I took as a special sign. A precious nun at the hospital came in to visit with me and I found her personality almost hypnotic, I seemed to hang on every word she said. She was from India, had to have been very beautiful as a young woman, and just very wise. As she got up to leave she handed me a small laminated prayer card. On one side of the card was a prayer, on the other side was a small picture - the same very old picture my paternal grandparents had framed and hanging over their mantle until they both passed away. It was one eerie feeling seeing that old picture and I intend to frame the card.


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## webster2 (May 19, 2011)

IDC, I am so sorry you are having such troubles. I wish an answer would come about for you. Maybe the kind nun and the familar picture are a sign that things will be okay.

When I read your symptoms, I wondered about gall bladder, since heart attack had been ruled out. I seriously thought I was having a heart attack when I had the first GB attack in January. And, in the hospital..they had never heard of Armour nor Nature-throid..kind of weird.

Take care!


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## Gwen1 (Sep 3, 2011)

IDClaire, I just think all your symptoms are thyroid medication related. Whether the dose is off, the Armour is not working for you, whatever. But it's definitely ALL related to your medication not being right. Thyroid hormone affects every cell in the body, so it's easy to think it's something else that's wrong. And it certainly can give you heart palpitations and anxiety. I read where you skipped your Armour for a day or two. That is enough to set your levels off and you will feel it.

I just spent the last 9 months decreasing from over medication on Levoxyl 125, now down to 75. I am age 50 and evidently lowered estrogen levels at my age are the reason for needing less thyroid. 
Anyway, while decreasing for the past 9 months, I went through every anxiety symptom imaginable- including waking up at nite with panic attack anxiety and strong heartrate. It was horrible. And I know about changing thyroid levels as I decreased 5 times.

Just wanted to give my input as I'm finally on a dose that I can handle and my symptoms are gone. I won't hesitate to say this; maybe another doctor would have a fresh perspective on your thyroid medication situation.


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## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

Hey guys,

I'm doing O.K. I think I feel empowered somehow - maybe finally being convinced that my heart is strong is allowing me to more closely observe other things.

Andros, I forgot to tell you but I finally got a written report with my Ferritin count - 97.2 (range 8-252).

Vitamin D, even though I take 4,000 IU daily, was 21.8 (range 20.0-100.0).

Vitamin B-12, historically low, was 17.11 (range 5.38-24.00).

Gwen1, I've had O.K. T4 Free and T3 Free results for two months and my doctor says TSH isn't reliable for patients on Armour. Like you, I'm becoming more and more convinced I maybe don't need as much thyroid hormone supplement as I once thought I needed.

I was thrilled when I finally climbed the Armour ladder to success and got a 120 mg dose...but...I'm thinking (not 100% sure) that's when the anxiety I've been dealing with all along kinda' took on a life of its own.

My doctor (one week ago today) told me I could experiment a little bit with + or - 15 mg. I dropped back to 105 all last week and don't know but what, even considering being hospitalized, etc.), I still felt better. This morning I decided I bump back up to 120 mg and I've felt a wee bit too hyper.

I'm 65 and must have the metabolism of a slug but while I used to think more thyroid hormone supplement meant more energy, I'm coming to believe that's not necessarily the way it works.


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

Gwen1 said:


> IDClaire, I just think all your symptoms are thyroid medication related. Whether the dose is off, the Armour is not working for you, whatever. But it's definitely ALL related to your medication not being right. Thyroid hormone affects every cell in the body, so it's easy to think it's something else that's wrong. And it certainly can give you heart palpitations and anxiety. I read where you skipped your Armour for a day or two. That is enough to set your levels off and you will feel it.
> 
> I just spent the last 9 months decreasing from over medication on Levoxyl 125, now down to 75. I am age 50 and evidently lowered estrogen levels at my age are the reason for needing less thyroid.
> Anyway, while decreasing for the past 9 months, I went through every anxiety symptom imaginable- including waking up at nite with panic attack anxiety and strong heartrate. It was horrible. And I know about changing thyroid levels as I decreased 5 times.
> ...


Gwen, this is very interesting. Did you continue to decrease based on how you felt, or based on lab results, or both?

Glad you've found your sweet spot!


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## Gwen1 (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks Octavia. 
I decreased incrementally starting in Oct.; 4 weeks 125 6 1/2, 9 weeks 118/112 ( I was in between doctors at the time, waiting to get into new endo so the alternating was my idea).

12 weeks on the 112's. 5 weeks on the 100's.
3 weeks on the 86.5 (100 6 days) then the 75's.

After awhile I noticed a pattern with each decrease. My symptoms would be knocked down in intensity but not knocked out by week 3-4. Improvements stopped between week 3 and 4. And that's how I knew I had to decrease again- yes, by symptoms. My endo was watching labs and listening to my symptoms. She knows thyroid and I have gained an awesome respect and confidence in her. She also handles her patients well. I was dependent on her to know how soon I could decrease safely. 
I will be getting labs on this dose the end of August.


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## I DClaire (Jul 31, 2011)

My endocrinologist told me a week ago that I had her blessing to experiment a little bit and I was thrilled! I absolutely love her to death but I do disagree with her about a couple of things.

I'm convinced whatever dose of Armour I take in the morning effects me within a few hours but my doctor doesn't seem to believe that. She has always been convinced that it would take 4-6 weeks before I'd know how a dosage change was effecting me but I truly believe I can tell almost immediately.

One time my doctor said (unless I misunderstood her) that theoretically a person could take a week's worth of thyroid hormone replacement at one time and their body would process it as needed. I just absolutely do not agree! She says I am unusually sensitive to everything and I very well may be but I can almost feel when my Armour kicks into action every morning.


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## webster2 (May 19, 2011)

I really think these medications work differently for some people. I have never felt the T3 kick in but I feel so much better on the Nature-throid than I did on Levo.

I am taking 2.25 grains now. I have to cut a half grain tablet to get the quarter grain...I am using up my half grain tabs. The other day I was cutting them and dropped one on the floor. I had to race my doggie girl for it. That dried up porker drives her crazy, and I guess it keeps me from being crazy! Anyway, I won, but it was a battle!


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

I DClaire said:


> One time my doctor said (unless I misunderstood her) that theoretically a person could take a week's worth of thyroid hormone replacement at one time and their body would process it as needed. I just absolutely do not agree!


Yikes! That sounds to me like it would cause the equivalent of a thyroid storm. ??? Well, I'm not going to find out!


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

webster2 said:


> The other day I was cutting them and dropped one on the floor. I had to race my doggie girl for it. That dried up porker drives her crazy, and I guess it keeps me from being crazy! Anyway, I won, but it was a battle!


My husband dropped one of his pills a few months ago, and the dog won. We had to call an emergency drug number, pay $20 to get an answer over the phone, and found out that he (the dog) should be fine, based on the dose and his weight. He was. Since the dog weighs 12 pounds, it does make me question the efficacy of the drug on a grown man, but whatever.


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## Gwen1 (Sep 3, 2011)

IDClaire, I, too, had that immediate effect within 1-2 hours of taking my pill. My endo did comment that I had a sensitivity to the Levoxyl for some reason. I never had that problem before I was overmedicated for 1 year and undermedicated for 4 years prior to that.

Anyway, for those of us who are "sensitive" I believe that we have this immediate effect from it, but also we will feel the full effects of a dose increase within 5 weeks like your doctor says. If decreasing, we'll feel a difference within 7 days up to a full 3-4 weeks as the T4 leaves our body.

The pill/med. is supposed to work quietly. Once we are on the right dose and our body settles down on it, I imagine the "immediate effect" will resolve over time.


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## Gwen1 (Sep 3, 2011)

Octavia, I was just talking to a friend of mine (she's a nurse) who actually knows someone who takes their whole dose on one day. I can't remember exactly what the reason was, but it had to do with convenience and another health issue. I will have to ask her again why they had to take it that way.


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

Gwen1 said:


> Octavia, I was just talking to a friend of mine (she's a nurse) who actually knows someone who takes their whole dose on one day. I can't remember exactly what the reason was, but it had to do with convenience and another health issue. I will have to ask her again why they had to take it that way.


Wow! Do find out...I'm very curious! (Although I still don't think I'd ever try it!  )


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## Octavia (Aug 1, 2011)

Gwen1 said:


> Thanks Octavia.
> I decreased incrementally starting in Oct.; 4 weeks 125 6 1/2, 9 weeks 118/112 ( I was in between doctors at the time, waiting to get into new endo so the alternating was my idea).
> 
> 12 weeks on the 112's. 5 weeks on the 100's.
> ...


Gwen, that's wonderful! Great that you have a doctor who is "on it" so to speak! You two do seem to work together well.


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## SnoodMama (Jan 11, 2011)

IDC I sent you a message about how I've been hyperthyroid on Levothyroxine, but I reduced my dose 6 weeks ago and now I feel like myself again. I'll post online again after my next blood tests. But, the way you describe how you feel is exactly how I felt on too high a dose. I've made very slow changes and overshot things for months on end. But, I feel loads better now. I think you need to maybe not focus on the labs so much but on your symptoms to adjust your dose. Sorry this is so short. I'm running out the door...........


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