# FINALLY!!!!



## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

OK, so I have been absent from here for a while.....last news was in December or so my Internist dumped me as a patient and told me to go see an Endo. She said that my throid issue is beyond her expertise. Since there is a shortage of Endos around here, the earliest appointment was July 3. This new Endo does prescribe T3/T4 combo treatment.....he freely prescribes Cytomel and also Armour. My old doc said she would keep prescribing my Metformin and my 75 mcgs Synthroid and 10 mcgs Cytomel until my July 3 appt. But, for the last month or so, I have been feeling worse and worse.

So early last week, I went to get labs. They were, let's just say....crappy! My Free T4 was so low that it was out of range, and my Free T3 was barely in range. It just so happened that I was going in for my annual physical late last week, with a new primary care doc, who is in the same hospital network as my new Endo. When he saw my labs, he was appalled. He ordered them drawn again, thinking something had to be off. Well, they came in today, and Free T4 is still so low it is out of range. T3 barely in the range, still not where it needed to be.

While I was talking to this doc, I told him that I would be starting to see the Endo in July, and that I was going to request to try Armour. He decided that he would start me on it to see if it gets me started going in the right direction. New blood tests in 6 weeks, right before the Endo, so he can follow up! So happy!!!! He started me out on 60 mgs, and told me if it makes me feel bad all at once to split it. I can't wait!!! I start it tomorrow morning!!


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Oh, I just love to hear stories such as yours!! What good luck!!! Please let us know how you do on the Armour! You know Armour has T4, T3, T2 and T1............................even some T0. So you should do well. It is the closest to our own hormone.

Hugs,


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Andros said:


> Oh, I just love to hear stories such as yours!! What good luck!!! Please let us know how you do on the Armour! You know Armour has T4, T3, T2 and T1............................even some T0. So you should do well. It is the closest to our own hormone.
> 
> Hugs,


Thank you Andros! I am hoping it works. I was doing pretty darn good on the Synthroid/Cytomel combo for a WHILE, and then started really going downhill. My previous doctor told me flat out that she would NOT prescribe any NDT, and would not raise my meds, even though my levels were frighteningly low.

Thankfully, my new primary care doctor is very open-minded......he was trained in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic (he only moved to the US in 1994), and he said that they commonly use NDT therapy there.


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## ssMarilyn (Nov 15, 2013)

*Best wishes Dolly! Switching from Synthroid to Armour changed my life. I'm still not 100% but I'm feeling totally different than I did on Synthroid. I'm happy for once! I feel good inside.. I'm sleeping better, longer. My palps stopped dead in their tracks and haven't come back and it's been about 4 months! Resting heart rate has slowed down too. arty0045: *


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Thanks Marilyn!

I am feeling REALLY good in the morning (better than on Synthroid and Cytomel combo), but I think I am going to have to split my dose. I was used to getting my cytomel in the afternoon, and since starting the Armour, I am crashing in the afternoon. So, I think I will start splitting it tomorrow and see how that goes.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

OK, so splitting the 1 grain dose not an option. Felt crappy in the morning and in the afternoon yesterday. I am thinking about just going ahead and doubling my dose.....1 gran in the morning, one in the evening and then call my GP about it after the fact. I know calling him for an increase right now would not be an option, because he adamantly stated no increases for 6 weeks. I don't care.....I feel like I am literally going to fall out in the afternoon, and have to take a nap to even be somewhat human.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

When are you do for labs and a possible increase of your Armour? Splitting the dose is not necessary. Armour build up just like most other meds do.

You might need an increase. See your doctor about every 6 to 8 weeks for this.

Hugs,


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Andros said:


> When are you do for labs and a possible increase of your Armour? Splitting the dose is not necessary. Armour build up just like most other meds do.
> 
> You might need an increase. See your doctor about every 6 to 8 weeks for this.
> 
> Hugs,


I just started the Armour last week and immediately started feeling crappy in the afternoon (great in the morning).....more than I was before. My FT3 was barely in range and my FT4 was so low that it was out of range. I was on Synthroid/Cytomel combo before, and afternoon is when I really needed the Cytomel.

My GP said labs in 6 weeks (5 more weeks now), and then we will talk about an increase. That 5 weeks out timeframe is when I will see the new Endo.....the GP is the one that prescribed the Armour (he was open-minded enough to do that), but won't do an increase this early. He says if I felt results that quickly that it is all in my head. I love him to death, and so glad he started me on the Armour, but he is also very stubborn. I am a person who feels the effects of a dose change IMMEDIATELY. He says my Endo will talk to me about an increase after 6 weeks. I know I need more, and NOW. The morning is GREAT when I take 1 grain.....in the afternoon, I CRASH, and HARD.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

I just talked to a friend/tax client who has some unused Armour.....she said I could have it.....they are the 1 grain tabs just like I have.....think I am going to start taking 1 grain in the AM and 1 grain in the PM.....and see what happens from there.


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## jenny v (May 6, 2012)

Do NOT increase by one grain, that is way too big of an increase. The Armour site says to go up 1/4 grain every dose increase--you run the risk of giving yourself some terrible side effects (including scary heart issues) if you double your dose right away. I have been on Armour for almost 6 months now and have worked up to 2.5 grains, but by 1/4 grain increases each time. It was hard in the beginning but I pushed through.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Thanks for the advice.

I was just looking at the comparison charts....I was on 75 synthroid and 10 mcgs Cytomel before, and that was actually too low. Before I got put on Armour, I tried 20 mcgs Cytomel and felt great. No palps or high BP or anything. Of course, that was self-medicating.....my doc would never allow it.

I will probably just start with an extra 1/4 to 1/2, like you suggested.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Well, I decided to go ahead and jumped in and did 1 grain this morning at about 6:00am) and 1 at about noon (we hadn't eaten since 8:30, and had lunch about 1:00, so I had a nice empty stomach). Moral of the story.....I FEEL GREAT!!! No heart issues, no sluggishness or fatigue like I had yesterday. Feel fab! Much better than the Synth/Cytomel combo.....I am a happy camper so far!


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Two grains again today and feeling GREAT!


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## bigfoot (May 13, 2011)

Dolly said:


> I was just looking at the comparison charts....I was on 75 synthroid and 10 mcgs Cytomel before, and that was actually too low. Before I got put on Armour, I tried 20 mcgs Cytomel and felt great. No palps or high BP or anything. Of course, that was self-medicating.....my doc would never allow it.


My humble opinion is that those comparison charts are a little on the weak side. And I suspect that's so that doctors and patients don't inadvertently start out with too high of a dose.

Glad to hear you are feeling better, but do be careful. Like others have mentioned, the usual dose increase is 1/4 grain at a time. It's easy to get in over your head really quickly. Keep an eye on your resting pulse (anything over 100 bpm), watch your body temps, and monitor how you feel -- keeping in mind that being over-medicated can give a lot of the same signs/symptoms as being under-medicated.

And as far as you noticing the effects of a dose change nearly immediately, I concur, some of us are that way. I'll usually notice within a few days or so, plus or minus. Far sooner than the "6-8 weeks" half-life suggested for T4, for example. Some of us are probably over-responders.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

bigfoot said:


> My humble opinion is that those comparison charts are a little on the weak side. And I suspect that's so that doctors and patients don't inadvertently start out with too high of a dose.
> 
> Glad to hear you are feeling better, but do be careful. Like others have mentioned, the usual dose increase is 1/4 grain at a time. It's easy to get in over your head really quickly. Keep an eye on your resting pulse (anything over 100 bpm), watch your body temps, and monitor how you feel -- keeping in mind that being over-medicated can give a lot of the same signs/symptoms as being under-medicated.
> 
> And as far as you noticing the effects of a dose change nearly immediately, I concur, some of us are that way. I'll usually notice within a few days or so, plus or minus. Far sooner than the "6-8 weeks" half-life suggested for T4, for example. Some of us are probably over-responders.


Thank you. Yes, I started monitoring symptoms like that when I started on Cytomel, so I know what to look for. I am not planning to increase any more until I see my new Endo, which will be July 3. The 1 grain just left me slightly better than dead, for lack of a better analogy, and I was not willing to spend that many weeks feeling like crap! Two grains has me feeling great. Better than when I was on the synthetic combo, for sure.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Something that I have noticed.....and it may have to do with fillers or whatnot.....Cytomel, when it would kick in, was like a big RUSH of energy......Armour isn't like that with me. It is more of a slow increase in my energy, alertness, and such. I know T3 is T3 is T3, but it may be the other thyroid hormones along with the T3, fillers, or whatnot. I like this better. MUCH better. It feels more natural.


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## bigfoot (May 13, 2011)

Yes, and there is also T1, T2, etc. which is missing from the synthetics. Keep on with the good progress!


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## ssMarilyn (Nov 15, 2013)

Dolly said:


> Something that I have noticed.....and it may have to do with fillers or whatnot.....Cytomel, when it would kick in, was like a big RUSH of energy......Armour isn't like that with me. It is more of a slow increase in my energy, alertness, and such. I know T3 is T3 is T3, but it may be the other thyroid hormones along with the T3, fillers, or whatnot. I like this better. MUCH better. It feels more natural.


*I tried Cytomel once, along with my Synthroid. Smallest dosage of 5mg and I cut it in half and still felt crappy and higher than a kite. I took it 3 days and said NO MORE! I feel wonderful on Armour. I've researched Armour so much, and read books on it written by MD's that specialize in it and they all say split the dosage in order to keep an even level of T3 in your body. I'm a changed person on Armour. Thank you God!! I still need another small increase I think, but that will probably be it.*


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

I had taken the cytomel for several months....took it twice a day. While it did help with my energy at first, I found it to be a lot more harsh than Armour. I am taking one grain in the morning, and one gram after lunch (around 1:20-2:00 or so). Feeling great!!


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## mum2bradley (Sep 27, 2010)

I am no expert on Armour, I am on the Canadian version. But doubling you dose is a huge increase.

I started in January on 30 in the am and 15 in the afternoon.

Now I am up to 60 in the am and 60 in the afternoon. You may not feel it yet but I suspect you will have some hypo symptoms in a few days. I know I do and I only ever increase my 15 mg.

Good luck.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

mum2bradley said:


> I am no expert on Armour, I am on the Canadian version. But doubling you dose is a huge increase.
> 
> I started in January on 30 in the am and 15 in the afternoon.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your concern, but I am doing fine. I had no hyper symptoms with Cytomel, and I haven't with Armour either. I have been on 2 grains per day since last Sunday and I feel fantastic. As I understand it, most people who have the hardest time with Armour are those who had never tried T3. I know how my body reacts to T3, and have never had any hyper symptoms, ever. Not on cytomel, and now not on Armour.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

I have to say that the difference between how I felt on the Synthroid/Cytomel combo and how I feel now on 2 grains of Armour is like night & day. I haven't felt this good in 10 years (or more)!


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## bigfoot (May 13, 2011)

Excellent! Hard to argue with empirical data, clearly you are feeling better. And ultimately, that's what it's all about, not numbers on a lab sheet or a doctor's ego. We are all our own individual cases.

I read in passing a while ago that thyroid patients in the good old days were prescribed desiccated products like Armour, at a dose 2-3 times higher than they give out now. Not sure how true that is, or if it is a myth, but food for thought nonetheless.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Exactly. My new doctor may decide to give me a little bump up when he sees me on July 3, but I will for sure be letting him know that I feel REALLY good at this level.

I literally feel like I have been given my life back. My hair shedding has slowed, my seriously puffy face is gone, my foot/ankle edema is gone, my energy is back, and I am not falling asleep in the afternoons!! I still have a FEW nagging symptoms, but they are things I can live with until I see the doctor.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Had labs drawn a few weeks ago, and my numbers are clearly improving. Probably need another bump up in the Armour, but will let the new Endo make that decision. I see him this morning at 9:00.....wish me luck!!


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## bigfoot (May 13, 2011)

Good luck! Happy to hear labs are looking better, let us know how it goes.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Very encouraged! Love my new Endo! He treats based on symptoms AND labs. He actually is increasing my Armour, because late afternoon fatigue is trying to rear its ugly head.....not every day, but sometimes. He said he wants me on 3 grains a day....one in the morning (5:00am), one about an hour before lunch, and one in the mid afternoon. He wants to do an ultrasound of my thyroid also, because he thinks he felt a nodule on the left side. I go for that on Aug 6.

He also added Invokana along with my metformin because my blood sugar has been going whacko lately. I am insulin resistant, and my numbers have been all over the place lately.

HOORAY for good doctors!!!


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

I was a little bit freaked when he said he thought he felt a nodule (and no other doctor did), but I am glad that he wants to do the ultrasound to be sure! And he actually took my hand in his to show me WHAT he was feeling. I like him so far!!!!


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

How much Cytomel were you taking before you switched over to Armour? Maybe a higher dose is okay but I will always say that the doc should give the okay first.

Keep us in the loop!

Hugs,


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Andros said:


> I hate to say this but you clearly are not one to take good advice and you are also usurping your doctor's trust in you. This is misuse of a pharmaceutical to the enth degree. Trust between doctor and patient is of the utmost importance.
> 
> This has been expressed because I care. Very much.


I'm sorry.....I must not understand what you are saying. I doubled my dose of Armour when I first started taking it.....it was originally prescribed by my GP. I explained to my new Endo yesterday why I did so. He agreed that based on my bloodwork a couple of weeks ago, that it was ok, and actually upped it based on where my labs were.

I have been on 2 grains for almost 6 weeks. My new Endo knows this. My doctor said based on my LABS and the fact that I am starting to have a few afternoons a week where I am feeling fatigue, HE wants me on 3 grains a day. My FT3 and FT4 were both well below mid-range. Why is it misusing pharmaceuticals if I am following HIS orders?

If you are talking about 6 weeks ago, when I initially increased my dose, I really had no choice. I could not run my solely-owned business and take care of my son on one grain a day. I was taking a 2-3 hr nap EVERY afternoon. My GP would not increase the dose because he said he is not a thyroid expert, and wanted my new Endo to make the call. When I increased the dose, I called the GP and told him what I was going to do. He listed off the hyper symptoms to watch for, and told me to inform the new Endo what I did, and that he was noting it in my chart.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

I am so sorry; I missed that information. I thought you said you got some from your friend which made me think incorrectly!!

Sending hugs,


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Andros said:


> I am so sorry; I missed that information. I thought you said you got some from your friend which made me think incorrectly!!
> 
> Sending hugs,


The first increase that I did on my own was from a friend, but I did call the GP and told him what I was doing. He may not have agreed with me, but I wanted him to know so my chart would be complete. I had decided NOT to go any higher until the new Endo saw me. The new increase was my new Endo's decision.



Andros said:


> How much Cytomel were you taking before you switched over to Armour? Maybe a higher dose is okay but I will always say that the doc should give the okay first.
> 
> Keep us in the loop!
> 
> Hugs,


I started off 2.5 in the morning and 2.5 in the afternoon, then went to 5 in the am, 5 in the pm. My old doc was too scared to go higher, even though my Free T3 was still always in the toilet, and I was falling out in the late afternoon. On two grains of Armour for 6 weeks now, my Free T3 is a little higher, but still not even mid-range. And even though I feel really good most days, I have started to have a few days a week when I feel like I need a nap.

He also agreed with my analysis that the Cytomel is a bit more "harsh" than Armour. He said that all T3 is not the same. There really IS a difference. He told me to go easy with the increase, and that if another full grain is too much to back it down to half and work my way back up.

Took 3 grains for the last 2 days and feel great! No hyper symptoms, either.


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Feeling great as far as thyroid symptoms go......no hyper symptoms, afternoon fatigue issues are just......GONE.

Just trying to regulate my sugar with the Invokana. It is really different, and is a balancing act. Good for me though, because I really have to be conscious of what I eat, and WHEN, or my sugar will drop like a rock. My numbers are down though, and they seem to be leveling out.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Now I see the conundrum. Each grain of Armour contains only 9 mcg. of T3 so even on your 2 grains, 18 mcgs. may not be enough for you. And by the way, I am on 3 1/2 grains of Armour per day and have been for many years.

Just titrate slowly so that you don't overshoot your ideal spot and also so you don't go hyper. It is always better to err on the side of caution.

And I am so very very glad that you are feeling better. What a blessing that is!

Sending hugs,


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## Dolly (Apr 24, 2013)

Andros said:


> Now I see the conundrum. Each grain of Armour contains only 9 mcg. of T3 so even on your 2 grains, 18 mcgs. may not be enough for you. And by the way, I am on 3 1/2 grains of Armour per day and have been for many years.
> 
> Just titrate slowly so that you don't overshoot your ideal spot and also so you don't go hyper. It is always better to err on the side of caution.
> 
> ...


Thank you Andros! Yes, feeling better truly is a blessing!

The 9 mcgs of T3 per grain is precisely why my Endo suggested that I go up to 3 grains a day. He said my labs supported the fact that I probably needed more T3. He said if 3 made me feel hyper to back down to 2.5 and go slower. BUT, feeling great on 3 grains.....no hyper symptoms, and just feeling "normal".....or what normal WAS 10 years ago!!!

And, I am so ECSTATIC to finally have a good doctor!!!!


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## bigfoot (May 13, 2011)

This is great news! arty0045:


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

And I agree! Great thyroid docs are few and far between. This is awesome!

Hugs,


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