# years later...



## Lizj (Nov 24, 2010)

Hi, I have Graves and was ablated with RAI 7 or 8 years ago. I've been stable on the same dose of synthroid (137 mcg) for at least 6 years, until this summer. Suddenly, I'm cold when no one else is cold and all the hypo symptoms again. Dose increased to 150, then 175 and now need another increase to 200 (I think this will be it, b/c I am close now with tsh of just over 5)

The problem is I started a chinese herbal rx for eczema (long story) which is working. The chinese doc says no way are the thyroid changes from her meds. And to be honest, the first tiny bump in my tsh predates her meds.

Here is my question: Did some little nubbin of thyroid tissue finally die and so I need a higher dose? Have other people seen this? or is this chinese doc wrong? I don't want to stop her herbs b/c they are really working.

Thank you all for your collective wisdom.
Liz


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## GD Women (Mar 5, 2007)

I can't answer to Chinese doc meds. A lot of things can interfere with thyroid absorption. Such as environment, certain foods like grapefruit is a no no for a lot of medications and I believe oranges is an enhancer to thyroid. Stress and/or other health issues can interfere with thyroid too. As it is TSH can fluctuate from week to week as well.

It would be wise and you might have already done this, is to take both medicines way apart from each other, that way it would be a littler safer and better absorption of both.

Now after saying all that, I believe your thyroid is doing its process in slowly dying off from RAI. People don't understand that for some depending on the strength of the RAI dose, it might take years for RAI to finish its job. This is also true of surgery. Thyroid medication dose of 200 or more states that the thyroid is just about finished. However your TSH is still over the range, so don't be surprised if you have a few more adjustments ahead of you in the future.

You and your thyroid are just going through the RAI process so don't worry too much. If you can check into the Chinese doc meds a little more through maybe do internet search on the "Chinese meds effect on thyroid/medication", you might be put at ease with some positive out come.

Anyway good luck.


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## lavender (Jul 13, 2010)

It can take 10 years for a thyroid to completely die off from RAI.


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## Lizj (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks to both of you. I do wait 4 or more hours after the synthroid to take the herbs.

Maybe the poor gland finally up and died....
I realize there is nothing I can do except see what happens when I stop the herbs, but thanks for your input

Liz:


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Lizj said:


> Hi, I have Graves and was ablated with RAI 7 or 8 years ago. I've been stable on the same dose of synthroid (137 mcg) for at least 6 years, until this summer. Suddenly, I'm cold when no one else is cold and all the hypo symptoms again. Dose increased to 150, then 175 and now need another increase to 200 (I think this will be it, b/c I am close now with tsh of just over 5)
> 
> The problem is I started a chinese herbal rx for eczema (long story) which is working. The chinese doc says no way are the thyroid changes from her meds. And to be honest, the first tiny bump in my tsh predates her meds.
> 
> ...


What are you taking? There are many supplements, herbs and even some meds that are goitrogenic?

I would strongly suspect the Chinese herbals.


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## Lizj (Nov 24, 2010)

Wow, if you know about this, that would be great. These are the ingredients from the bottles:

Smilax, polygonum stem, kochia, hoelen, licorice, medicated leaven, Lonicera, forsythia, moutan, Natural indigo, and lithospermum

Every thing I read on the web just says these ingredients help with "heat"-- meaning inflammation, i think, but wonder if it couldn't be interpreted as thyroid heat.

Liz


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Lizj said:


> Wow, if you know about this, that would be great. These are the ingredients from the bottles:
> 
> Smilax, polygonum stem, kochia, hoelen, licorice, medicated leaven, Lonicera, forsythia, moutan, Natural indigo, and lithospermum
> 
> ...


Liz; the first thing I hit on was the licorice. I happen to know about this one.

Licorice can reduce thyroid gland activity and lower the basal metabolic rate.

Because of its impact on the thyroid gland, licorice may alter the required dose of levothyroxine (Synthroid, Levothroid, Levoxyl). Likewise, its impact on cortisol may alter the effectiveness and appropriate dose of cortisonelike drugs.

http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2005/10/18/lemon-balm-1/

I would like to recommend that you look up each ingredient.

Here is a good site and if you can't find it here, just Google elsewhere.

Sloan-Kettering
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/11570.cfm


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## Lizj (Nov 24, 2010)

thanks very much, I will
Liz


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## GD Women (Mar 5, 2007)

Licorice, real licorice, not the candy type but the real thing, was on the hyperthyroid list of no no no, no's. Just one of the many food items no no no, no's.


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## lavender (Jul 13, 2010)

licorice acts as an anti-inflammatory, but can elevate blood pressure and cause hypertension, which is why it is dangerous to hypers!


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## Lizj (Nov 24, 2010)

I am about to look it up, but these pills look like leaves all ground up inside the capsule. I don't know how it relates to actual licorice, the candy. WIll post back after I have checked out those sites from Andros.
Liz


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## Lizj (Nov 24, 2010)

one more update. The only hits in people's pharmacy was for licorice. In the memorial sloan kettering site, also indigo came up. THen to the web with "licorice thyroid" Most of it doesn't state in which direction the thyroid would be affected, but some articles suggest it supports thyroid function (ie would cause a need for decrease in dose)

This article, which seems to create a hypothyroid rat, then feeds it either green tea and/or licorice, suggests licorice has no effect, and green tea may be helpful.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2635364/

here is another good article which suggests that licorice supplementation leads to DECREASE in synthroid dose 
http://www.restorativemedicine.com/...s-with-chinese-herbal-medicine/hypothyroidism

I will talk to the chinese doctor again about this, she is an MD, so I sort of trust what she says.

Thank you all for your help and happy thanksgiving.

Liz


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## lavender (Jul 13, 2010)

Lizj said:


> I am about to look it up, but these pills look like leaves all ground up inside the capsule. I don't know how it relates to actual licorice, the candy. WIll post back after I have checked out those sites from Andros.
> Liz


Licorice the candy typically has very little actual licorice root in it as it is artificially flavored.

Licorice root is the part of the plant typically used as a herbal medicine. I imagine that is part of what looks like crushed up leaves in your capsule. It is an anti-inflammatory, which could help with the eczema. However, it is a no-no for people with heart issues due to it causing hypertension. If your hypo symptoms include any heart palpitations, it might be the cause. I am not sure if it can change your levels or if one of the other ingredients can. Licorice is the herb I am most familiar with.


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## GD Women (Mar 5, 2007)

Lizj said:


> one more update. The only hits in people's pharmacy was for licorice. In the memorial sloan kettering site, also indigo came up. THen to the web with "licorice thyroid" Most of it doesn't state in which direction the thyroid would be affected, but some articles suggest it supports thyroid function (ie would cause a need for decrease in dose)
> 
> Liz


I was under the assumption after reading eons ago that "real licorice" is bad for hypers by making a hyper person more hyper. It may not effect hypos enough to make them hyper but might help levels to be more in the normal range but I wouldn't count on it for it may take eating tons to have any effects for hypos.

Green tea has candam (spell) which not only is bad for thyroid but bad for general health - it's toxic. It's in a lot of stuff/foods and tin cans that our food is canned in contains it too.

A lot of supposedly healthy herbs are bad as well. Some are sun sensitive for thyroids. I stay away from them and take vitamins/minerals instead.


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## lavender (Jul 13, 2010)

Lizj said:


> Wow, if you know about this, that would be great. These are the ingredients from the bottles:
> 
> Smilax, polygonum stem, kochia, hoelen, licorice, medicated leaven, Lonicera, forsythia, moutan, Natural indigo, and lithospermum
> 
> ...


Ok, curiosity took over, and I started looking up the ingredients in my herb book and various other places. here's what I have come up with so far:

Smilax is also known as sarsaparilla and has been used to make root beer
Main Uses:
1. for psoriasis, dermatitis, leprosy, and other skin disorders
2. as a blood purifier and general detoxification aid
3. as a general tonic (tones, balances, strengthens), stimulant, and hormonal regulator
4. for arthritis, rheumatism and autoimmune disorders which cause inflammation
5. for syphilis and other sexually transmitted diseases 
http://www.rain-tree.com/sarsaparilla.htm

Lonicera is honeysuckle-useful for treating coughs, catarrh and asthma. Lotion is good for skin infections. Curative action in cases of colitiis


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