# Labs/Hashi's questions



## Elegant_Phoenix (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm putting this here because of the Hashi's diagnosis.

These are the labs I'm wondering about:

TSH: 1.060, Range: .358-3.8
Thyroxine, Free: .92, Range: .76-1.46
Free T3: 2.85, Range: 2.18-3.98

Why would it be that the FT3 and FT4 are so low, but my body isn't asking my thyroid to produce more? I mean - with the low Frees, why is the TSH so low?

Is it the auto-immune component of the Hashimoto's? That this is really an auto-immune issue and not a thyroid issue?

What do you do to treat the auto-immune component?

Any input would be wonderful.


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## McKenna (Jun 23, 2010)

There are binding and blocking properties of antibodies, which can skew lab results.
Or, TSH lags a bit behind, so that could be why it looks a little lower.

You have to keep in mind that people with Hashi's can have fluctuating labs.



> What do you do to treat the auto-immune component?


 Ah, that is the million dollar question! Lifestyle changes to keep antibodies at bay. Some people use selenium to lower antibodies. But this is both an autoimmune issue AND a thyroid issue. Eventually your thyroid will get worse with the attacks until it no longer produces hormone.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Elegant_Phoenix said:


> I'm putting this here because of the Hashi's diagnosis.
> 
> These are the labs I'm wondering about:
> 
> ...


My theory is that you need more T4. Your thyroid may not be producing enough. It is practically non-existent allowing for the fact that it is converting to FT3. Which is draining the T4 stores.

That is what I see right now. I may be wrong, I may be right.

The other possibility would be that the stimulating, binding and blocking antibodies are fast at work blocking and binding receptor sites. (This definitely would be autoimmune but not necessarily Hashimoto's.)

First one has to find out exactly what the problem is before any treatment can be considered.


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## Elegant_Phoenix (Feb 26, 2011)

Thank you both.

My PCP started me on 25 mcg of Levothyroxine. I was nervous to take it even at such a low dose because of my TSH at 1.06.

I know it's not a lot, but how long until I can feel a difference or do you think it will even be noticed?

I also went to my acupuncturist yesterday.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Elegant_Phoenix said:


> Thank you both.
> 
> My PCP started me on 25 mcg of Levothyroxine. I was nervous to take it even at such a low dose because of my TSH at 1.06.
> 
> ...


It will take a while. It takes 6 to 8 weeks for the T4 to build up. But, since you are so starved for it, you may notice some subtle differences a whole lot sooner.

This is a good starting dose and I presume you will get labs in 6 to 8 weeks?

I believe acupuncture is a very helpful tool. Do you feel a bit better today? I hope?


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## Elegant_Phoenix (Feb 26, 2011)

Andros said:


> It will take a while. It takes 6 to 8 weeks for the T4 to build up. But, since you are so starved for it, you may notice some subtle differences a whole lot sooner.
> 
> This is a good starting dose and I presume you will get labs in 6 to 8 weeks?
> 
> I believe acupuncture is a very helpful tool. Do you feel a bit better today? I hope?


Yes. More labs in 6 weeks.

Do you think it will drive my TSH lower or is that impossible to tell, especially with the fluxuation of Hashi's? It will definately be interesting to see what they look like!

Yes. I do feel much better today. Maybe even a bit light-headed. I'm attributing this to the acupuncture. He hit a few zingers yesterday that took well over 20 minutes to calm down. I had the needles in for around 40 minutes. Last night was the fist night since September 2nd that I haven't had foot pain, either. Maybe a fluke - maybe not. Time will tell.

I purchased some Chinese herbs from the acupuncturist and he gave me a ton of literature. He recommended that I stay on the Levothyroxine for the 6 weeks and then decide if I want to add the herbs.


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Elegant_Phoenix said:


> Yes. More labs in 6 weeks.
> 
> Do you think it will drive my TSH lower or is that impossible to tell, especially with the fluxuation of Hashi's? It will definately be interesting to see what they look like!
> 
> ...


Glad you hear that you got some relief from the foot pain. I used to sleep with my feet hanging off the end of the bed for years and years due to this foot pain and the fact that they also burned. (Peripheral neuropathy, I presume?)

What are the Chinese Herbs? I am always interested in this stuff!


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## northernlite (Oct 28, 2010)

When I started on Levothyroxine it took about 12 days before I felt any changes. Then it seemed to keep improving for another two weeks or so and then seemed to level off for the next couple weeks.


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## Elegant_Phoenix (Feb 26, 2011)

Andros said:


> Glad you hear that you got some relief from the foot pain. I used to sleep with my feet hanging off the end of the bed for years and years due to this foot pain and the fact that they also burned. (Peripheral neuropathy, I presume?)
> 
> What are the Chinese Herbs? I am always interested in this stuff!


http://www.acu-market.com/Thyro-forte-Evergreen-Caps-100ct/productinfo/C3761/

Thyro-forte by Evergreen. This site lists the ingredients. I have a 5 page print out from the doc about the product and what each of the herbs does, but it was saved to his C: drive and I cannot find it on line. I'm sure you could look them up individually. I think a lot of them are for immune support.

Here is a quick paragraph for a snapshot:
According to traditional Chinese medicine, hypothyroidism is a condition characterized by yang deficiency. While the fundamental etiology is Kidney yang deficiency, complications may involve yin deficiency of the Kidney and yang deficiencies of the Spleen and Heart. Treatment, therefore, must address both yang and yin deficiencies of the organs involved.

My right foot hurt a lot - plantar faciitis type pain and burning in the arch. Worse towards the end of the day. The left was starting to follow suit.


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## Elegant_Phoenix (Feb 26, 2011)

northernlite said:


> When I started on Levothyroxine it took about 12 days before I felt any changes. Then it seemed to keep improving for another two weeks or so and then seemed to level off for the next couple weeks.


Thank you!


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## Andros (Aug 26, 2009)

Elegant_Phoenix said:


> http://www.acu-market.com/Thyro-forte-Evergreen-Caps-100ct/productinfo/C3761/
> 
> Thyro-forte by Evergreen. This site lists the ingredients. I have a 5 page print out from the doc about the product and what each of the herbs does, but it was saved to his C: drive and I cannot find it on line. I'm sure you could look them up individually. I think a lot of them are for immune support.
> 
> ...


I put the "short cut" link on desktop. If I have time, I will get into it this weekend. I love this stuff.

Now my comment. The one thing we do not want to do is boost the immune system for when you trigger the antibodies (and not all of them are good ones) we also trigger the autoantibodies to the antibodies!!

You talk about a mess?? Girl, you just don't want to know. Give this some very serious thought.

It is however, very important to take things that support the immune system such as selenium, coq10, omega III etc..


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## Elegant_Phoenix (Feb 26, 2011)

Andros said:


> I put the "short cut" link on desktop. If I have time, I will get into it this weekend. I love this stuff.
> 
> Now my comment. The one thing we do not want to do is boost the immune system for when you trigger the antibodies (and not all of them are good ones) we also trigger the autoantibodies to the antibodies!!
> 
> ...


lol! There is no right answer with this Hashi's thing is there!

Here is some more from the supplement info:

CLINICAL APPLICATIONS:
- Hypothyroidism
- Hypothyroidism with fatigue, lack of energy, dull facial expression, hoarse voice, drooping eyelids, puffy swollen eyes and face, weight gain, constipation, aversion to cold, dry hair and skin, low body temperature, decreased heart rate and blood pressure, muscle weakness, sluggishness and other related symptoms.
- Chronic thyroiditis.

WESTERN THERAPUETIC ACTIONS:
- Stimulates the production of thyroid hormones
- Increases basal metabolism
- Improves physiological functions
- Enhances energy levels

CHINESE THERAPEUTIC ACTIONS
- Tonify Kidney, Heart and Spleen yang
- Nourish Kidney yin
- Tonify qi


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## lainey (Aug 26, 2010)

Thyro forte - Evergreen Caps 100ct

Subcategories & Applications

Endocrine Support / Thyroid Support
TCM Function

Tonifies Kidney and Spleen yang
Ingredients

Lu Jiao (Cornu Cervi)
Gui Ban (Plastrum Testudinis)
Shu Di Huang (Radix Rehmanniae Praeparata)
Shan Yao (Rhizoma Dioscoreae)
Shan Zhu Yu (Fructus Corni)
Fu Ling (Poria)
Mu Dan Pi (Cortex Moutan)
Ze Xie (Rhizoma Alismatis)
Hai Zao (Sargassum)
Kun Bu (Thallus Eckloniae)
Gou Qi Zi (Fructus Lycii)
Ren Shen (Rx/Rz Ginseng)
Fu Zi (Radix Aconiti Lateralis Praeparata)
Rou Gui (Cortex Cinnamomi)

In the end, a majority contain seaweed/kelp in some capacity--I don't have time to look up all of them right now, but I got as far as Sargassum, which is brown sea weed. Almost all herbals for thyroid support have iodine in them somewhere.


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